Indian Air Strikes in Pakistan
Although I must admit that AMRAAM fragment doesn’t look like it came from a missile that actually detonated.
I think we need Inspector Piroit...
Slightly strange that India is using Mig21 as a front line AD aircraft against an opponent fielding F16s. Surely, even upgraded, they would be at a significant disadvantage?
Originally Posted by NYT Dec 2004
"You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time," Mr. Rumsfeld said.
Hard to say.
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That strike might also have been a probe, to gauge Pakistani reactions.
Hard to say.
Hard to say.
after all Indians claim the Pakistanis to be warmongers. If that were the case, the response could have been nuclear. Hell of a gamble if you ask me. Fortunately the Indians proved that not only are Pakistanis sane people, but also that the Pakistanis are better equipped to deal with them, pakistan being at war on the western front since 2001 makes it a very combat hardened military.
But hey what do I know, i am not a military man
like the last fabricated so called surgical strike (atleast this time there actually was an airspace violation)? Or when they shot down an Pakistan Navy Atlantique Link in Pakistani airspace? There must be a better way to test the reaction
after all Indians claim the Pakistanis to be warmongers. If that were the case, the response could have been nuclear. Hell of a gamble if you ask me. Fortunately the Indians proved that not only are Pakistanis sane people, but also that the Pakistanis are better equipped to deal with them, pakistan being at war on the western front since 2001 makes it a very combat hardened military.
But hey what do I know, i am not a military man
after all Indians claim the Pakistanis to be warmongers. If that were the case, the response could have been nuclear. Hell of a gamble if you ask me. Fortunately the Indians proved that not only are Pakistanis sane people, but also that the Pakistanis are better equipped to deal with them, pakistan being at war on the western front since 2001 makes it a very combat hardened military.
But hey what do I know, i am not a military man
As to "there must be a better way to test the reaction": must there be? You give the political leadership far too much credit.
I spent over two decades in the military. I will say without reservation that it is not uncommon for orders from on high (at the political level) to come down. Once received and digested, one looks at one's colleagues and asks "what are those idiots in the capital thinking? What were they drinking, or smoking, just before they came up with this cunning plan?"
If the Indian leadership figured they could slip in, deliver some ordnance, and then slip out, they discovered otherwise. That means "Goodonya Pakistan's Air Force, you were on task when you needed to be."
As to "going nuclear" ... my guess is that it would take a lot more than a border incursion in Kashmir to evoke that kind of response.
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The Atlantique event, being about 20 years old, is a bit long in the tooth to be relevant to this clash. (What/when was the last "surgical strike" that probably wasn't that you refer to?) Is that the same as the Atlantique, or something else?
As to "there must be a better way to test the reaction": must there be? You give the political leadership far too much credit.
I spent over two decades in the military. I will say without reservation that it is not uncommon for orders from on high (at the political level) to come down. Once received and digested, one looks at one's colleagues and asks "what are those idiots in the capital thinking? What were they drinking, or smoking, just before they came up with this cunning plan?"
If the Indian leadership figured they could slip in, deliver some ordnance, and then slip out, they discovered otherwise. That means "Goodonya Pakistan's Air Force, you were on task when you needed to be."
As to "going nuclear" ... my guess is that it would take a lot more than a border incursion in Kashmir to evoke that kind of response.
As to "there must be a better way to test the reaction": must there be? You give the political leadership far too much credit.
I spent over two decades in the military. I will say without reservation that it is not uncommon for orders from on high (at the political level) to come down. Once received and digested, one looks at one's colleagues and asks "what are those idiots in the capital thinking? What were they drinking, or smoking, just before they came up with this cunning plan?"
If the Indian leadership figured they could slip in, deliver some ordnance, and then slip out, they discovered otherwise. That means "Goodonya Pakistan's Air Force, you were on task when you needed to be."
As to "going nuclear" ... my guess is that it would take a lot more than a border incursion in Kashmir to evoke that kind of response.
Yup the Atlantique shoot down probably isnt relevant anymore
completely agree about the political leadership
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Two points:
AIM-120. If one were to sit with a child and draw a missile that was designed to go towards a target (can’t think of any that aren’t) you probably have an order of march something like: Seeker, guidance unit, some fusing device, frag and ‘energetics’ - then all the petrol and anything else you’ve forgotten. Given the position of the target you’d probably find a clever way of getting it to explode outwards (bit of a given) and preferably forwards. Ergo no real surprise if stuff behind the warhead survives in some form or another.
Ref the Mig-21 being there. Could be as simple as using the simpler aircraft to detonate the air picture for the big boys to tidy up. So long as the detonator escapes and the big boys tidy - not a bad idea. If the detonator ‘collects one’ then you’ve ‘sort of blown it’. Obvs I’ve got no idea what he was doing, hope his back’s OK. Never been a Mig-21 fan myself but it does have supporters - and the Romanians in particular fielded quite a cheeky variant.
AIM-120. If one were to sit with a child and draw a missile that was designed to go towards a target (can’t think of any that aren’t) you probably have an order of march something like: Seeker, guidance unit, some fusing device, frag and ‘energetics’ - then all the petrol and anything else you’ve forgotten. Given the position of the target you’d probably find a clever way of getting it to explode outwards (bit of a given) and preferably forwards. Ergo no real surprise if stuff behind the warhead survives in some form or another.
Ref the Mig-21 being there. Could be as simple as using the simpler aircraft to detonate the air picture for the big boys to tidy up. So long as the detonator escapes and the big boys tidy - not a bad idea. If the detonator ‘collects one’ then you’ve ‘sort of blown it’. Obvs I’ve got no idea what he was doing, hope his back’s OK. Never been a Mig-21 fan myself but it does have supporters - and the Romanians in particular fielded quite a cheeky variant.
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There is now a semi official claim of an Su30 shoot down and kill credit allotted to a 2nd Pakistani pilot. Mig 21 going to Sq/Ldr and Su30 going to a Wg/Cdr.
News is that the flanker went down on the indian side.
News is that the flanker went down on the indian side.
Ergo no real surprise if stuff behind the warhead survives in some form or another.
If only one AIM-120 was fired this could be from a second one still attached to the F-16....
I think we need Inspector Piroit...
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So official claims are 2 fighters shot down by PAF. 1 mig21 and 1 Su30. Since there us a 2nd alive pilot held by the pakistan army which would mean it was either a 2 seat mig21 or 2 fighters shot down.
india claims 1 F16 which cant be proven as the inventory if the PAF has not changed.
Unofficially no loss to the PAF. 3 fighters shot down plus 1 mi17 which is now slowly being acknowledged as a fratricide by India during the PAF strike.
also the the 2nd pilot being held is neither Indian nor Pakistani. The existence of the captured enemy pilot is being acknowledged officially by the government of pakistan. However the identity has not been revealed. The sudden deployment of long range systems pointing west by pakistan, the THAAD to Israel plus the unofficial sources claim of the pilot being a Israeli are an interesting twist
india claims 1 F16 which cant be proven as the inventory if the PAF has not changed.
Unofficially no loss to the PAF. 3 fighters shot down plus 1 mi17 which is now slowly being acknowledged as a fratricide by India during the PAF strike.
also the the 2nd pilot being held is neither Indian nor Pakistani. The existence of the captured enemy pilot is being acknowledged officially by the government of pakistan. However the identity has not been revealed. The sudden deployment of long range systems pointing west by pakistan, the THAAD to Israel plus the unofficial sources claim of the pilot being a Israeli are an interesting twist
Since there is a 2nd alive pilot held by the Pakistan army which would mean it was either a 2 seat mig 21 or 2 fighters shot down.
India claims 1 F16 which cant be proven as the inventory if the PAF has not changed.
Unofficially, no loss to the PAF. 3 fighters shot down plus 1 Mi-17 which is now slowly being acknowledged as a fratricide by India during the PAF strike.
Also the the 2nd pilot being held is neither Indian nor Pakistani. The existence of the captured enemy pilot is being acknowledged officially by the government of Pakistan. However the identity has not been revealed. The sudden deployment of long range systems pointing west by Pakistan, the THAAD to Israel plus the unofficial sources claim of the pilot being a Israeli are an interesting twist
I have no idea how to parse your points on the Long Range and THAAD thing.
I thus ask:
Are you saying that Pakistan THAAD is now being "pointed" at Israel due to a belief that a strike from Israel is pending, or that Israeli THAAD is being moved/Deployed?
Unclear as written.
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OK, this may take a bit more digging. I am reading from you that there are assertions of an Israeli pilot, flying for (or from within) India during a cross border strike into Pakistan. Or .... an observer in a two seat jet? Or WTF?
I have no idea how to parse your points on the Long Range and THAAD thing.
I thus ask:
Are you saying that Pakistan THAAD is now being "pointed" at Israel due to a belief that a strike from Israel is pending, or that Israeli THAAD is being moved/Deployed?
Unclear as written.
I have no idea how to parse your points on the Long Range and THAAD thing.
I thus ask:
Are you saying that Pakistan THAAD is now being "pointed" at Israel due to a belief that a strike from Israel is pending, or that Israeli THAAD is being moved/Deployed?
Unclear as written.
Sorry i think I wasnt clear. I meant to refer to the US deploying the THAAD to Israel. Pakistan has no missile defense system. Pakistan deployed long range ballistic missiles systems targeting both Israel and india.
About the Israeli pilot, my guess is as good as yours. But the news is that it is an israeli pilot. Probably from the su30 that was downed. That would make him part of the ADA flights put up to intercept the PAF fighters.
what is official is that there is a second pilot in custody. Question is why isnt he being acknowledged by india? Or being paraded by pakistan?
OK, Thanks, I am not sure that "US deploying THAAD" to Israel has anything to do with Pakistan's scrap with India. Nor do I see a direct link between Pakistan's long range missiles (and targeting Israel?) as necessarily related unless the news is saying that the latter is a change that arose within the last week or two. Still confusing, but thanks for explaining in any case. Give it a day or two and the smoke may clear.
Good questions, and my guess is "politics" is where the answer starts.
Question is why isn't he being acknowledged by India? Or being paraded by Pakistan?
New Delhi:A MiG-21 Bison crashed in Bikaner’s Shobhasar Ki Dhani area today, a defence spokesperson revealed. The pilot managed to eject safely.
Indian Air Force’s MiG-21 Bison took off from Nal on a routine mission on Friday afternoon when all of a sudden it showed technical snag. Reportedly, a bird had hit the plane but there has been no official confirmation yet.
The pilot of the aircraft ejected himself safely and there have been no reports of any loss of life.
Indian Air Force’s MiG-21 Bison took off from Nal on a routine mission on Friday afternoon when all of a sudden it showed technical snag. Reportedly, a bird had hit the plane but there has been no official confirmation yet.
The pilot of the aircraft ejected himself safely and there have been no reports of any loss of life.
The most believable version of events is that the Bison went after an F-16 of unknown mark and downed it with an R-73 but was then in turn shot down by an AIM-120C5 launched by a second F-16. Although I must admit that AMRAAM fragment doesn’t look like it came from a missile that actually detonated.
See following forum links for missile wreckage pics.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iaf-r...#post-11287514
https://forum.keypublishing.com/foru...h-glory/page15
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
So, after ditching Russian AAM for Israeli, they are now doing an emergency purchase of Israeli software defined radios to provide its fighter force with a common secure/data link capable comms system.
Not mentioned is what the datalink will be (L16 or other?) and how it will integrated with radar/sensors/displays etc.
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/a...er-jets/461569
IAF to buy SDRs from Israel to ensure secure communication between fighter jets
New Delhi: The Indian Air Force (IAF) bombed Balakot on February 26 this year. The next day, it fought off a determined effort by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to attack Indian army installations. During both battles, the IAF, when it came to safe communication, found itself deficient. And in future, it could lead to costly failures.
Immediately after Balakot, the IAF has decided to quickly buy Software Defined Radios (SDR), and integrate them with the aircraft fleets. This emergency purchase of SDRs from Israel will be for the Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and Sukhoi-30 fighters of the IAF.
The SDRs will ensure secure communication not just between fighters in the air, but also between fighters in the air and the ground installations and importantly between the fighters in the air and the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) - the eye in the sky. If there is an attempt to jam, communication can shift to another frequency and continue.
Besides conversations, it will provide secure data linking. This means everyone will know who - whether it is the fighter pilot, the AWACS controllers, the ground plotters - is where. This will help in better "combat control."
"Whatever we were talking could have been heard," a senior official said about the Balakot operations and after. The radios will ensure no one can pick up our communication. And importantly, the data linking will ensure we know who is where."
A small number - about 400 - are being purchased, as is possible during emergency acquisitions. Once the SDRs arrive, it will ensure that for the IAF, silence will truly be golden.
Not mentioned is what the datalink will be (L16 or other?) and how it will integrated with radar/sensors/displays etc.
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/a...er-jets/461569
IAF to buy SDRs from Israel to ensure secure communication between fighter jets
New Delhi: The Indian Air Force (IAF) bombed Balakot on February 26 this year. The next day, it fought off a determined effort by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to attack Indian army installations. During both battles, the IAF, when it came to safe communication, found itself deficient. And in future, it could lead to costly failures.
Immediately after Balakot, the IAF has decided to quickly buy Software Defined Radios (SDR), and integrate them with the aircraft fleets. This emergency purchase of SDRs from Israel will be for the Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and Sukhoi-30 fighters of the IAF.
The SDRs will ensure secure communication not just between fighters in the air, but also between fighters in the air and the ground installations and importantly between the fighters in the air and the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) - the eye in the sky. If there is an attempt to jam, communication can shift to another frequency and continue.
Besides conversations, it will provide secure data linking. This means everyone will know who - whether it is the fighter pilot, the AWACS controllers, the ground plotters - is where. This will help in better "combat control."
"Whatever we were talking could have been heard," a senior official said about the Balakot operations and after. The radios will ensure no one can pick up our communication. And importantly, the data linking will ensure we know who is where."
A small number - about 400 - are being purchased, as is possible during emergency acquisitions. Once the SDRs arrive, it will ensure that for the IAF, silence will truly be golden.
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Yes, a very limited portion of data from a layman journo to laymen readers. SDR itself is just a part of low-level stack of protocols. To start (only to start) linking any applications one needs at least smth like C4I-connect adaptor (if an Israeli manufacturer is considered). Then comes middleware (incl. data distribution) layer (yet to be filled in) and only then comes the turn of applications to be made interoperable. This is a very long way....
