Times Article Claims that US Troops Looted British Afghan War Site
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Times Article Claims that US Troops Looted British Afghan War Site
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...oops-dgf8f8c7f
Maiwand, the Afghan site of a British massacre, looted by US troops
In the dust and heat of the Afghan plain a band of heavily outnumbered British soldiers fought to the last against thousands of tribesmen armed with scimitars and shotguns. At the Battle of Maiwand on July 27, 1880, 969 British and Indian soldiers were killed. Many were later buried where they had fallen.
Almost 140 years later the ghosts of one of the bloodiest defeats in British military history have returned to haunt the western powers whose attempts to tame the Afghan wilds still continue. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) confirmed last week that it has presented the Pentagon with evidence that Maiwand’s historic 19th-century battlefield was looted by US soldiers on deployment in 2009. Personal possessions and military items that were buried alongside the victims of the battle were sent to America and sold to collectors. Some of the sold items have turned up online. “We condemn the improper removal of objects from historic sites,” the MoD said.
The defeat at Maiwand caused an outcry in Victorian Britain, despite the stories that later emerged of heroic resistance to an overwhelming Afghan force. When the British contingent was down to its last two officers and nine men of the 66th (Berkshire) Regiment of Foot, they were said to have met their deaths by charging on foot at the enemy. An Afghan witness said: “The behaviour of those last 11 was the wonder of all who saw it.”
Historical records show that a British column reached Maiwand soon after the battle and buried the bodies they found. They also buried military equipment and personal possessions that had not been looted by the Afghans. The remains lay largely undisturbed until the arrival in 2009 of a large force of US troops bent on crushing the Taliban. That same year a US military team engaged on civil reconstruction projects started work on an old irrigation ditch near Mahmudabad, a village in the Maiwand district of southern Afghanistan. It discovered a large haul of buried Victorian-era artefacts.
A US soldier working with the reconstruction team is understood to have posted a large consignment of historical items to America, where they were sold to a collector. On the Victorian Wars Forum website the collector posted images of his purchases with the caption: “Sent to me by my friend’s son who is currently in Afghanistan serving with the 1st Infantry Regiment.” The pictured items included binoculars, coins, watch chains, cartridge cases, Martini-Henry rifle parts, general service buttons and pipes. Some of the personal items bear soldiers’ initials.
An MoD official said the US soldier “may have broken international law”........ The MoD said the Pentagon had been informed and added: “This is a matter for the US military.”
The US defence department did not respond to a request for comment.
Maiwand, the Afghan site of a British massacre, looted by US troops
In the dust and heat of the Afghan plain a band of heavily outnumbered British soldiers fought to the last against thousands of tribesmen armed with scimitars and shotguns. At the Battle of Maiwand on July 27, 1880, 969 British and Indian soldiers were killed. Many were later buried where they had fallen.
Almost 140 years later the ghosts of one of the bloodiest defeats in British military history have returned to haunt the western powers whose attempts to tame the Afghan wilds still continue. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) confirmed last week that it has presented the Pentagon with evidence that Maiwand’s historic 19th-century battlefield was looted by US soldiers on deployment in 2009. Personal possessions and military items that were buried alongside the victims of the battle were sent to America and sold to collectors. Some of the sold items have turned up online. “We condemn the improper removal of objects from historic sites,” the MoD said.
The defeat at Maiwand caused an outcry in Victorian Britain, despite the stories that later emerged of heroic resistance to an overwhelming Afghan force. When the British contingent was down to its last two officers and nine men of the 66th (Berkshire) Regiment of Foot, they were said to have met their deaths by charging on foot at the enemy. An Afghan witness said: “The behaviour of those last 11 was the wonder of all who saw it.”
Historical records show that a British column reached Maiwand soon after the battle and buried the bodies they found. They also buried military equipment and personal possessions that had not been looted by the Afghans. The remains lay largely undisturbed until the arrival in 2009 of a large force of US troops bent on crushing the Taliban. That same year a US military team engaged on civil reconstruction projects started work on an old irrigation ditch near Mahmudabad, a village in the Maiwand district of southern Afghanistan. It discovered a large haul of buried Victorian-era artefacts.
A US soldier working with the reconstruction team is understood to have posted a large consignment of historical items to America, where they were sold to a collector. On the Victorian Wars Forum website the collector posted images of his purchases with the caption: “Sent to me by my friend’s son who is currently in Afghanistan serving with the 1st Infantry Regiment.” The pictured items included binoculars, coins, watch chains, cartridge cases, Martini-Henry rifle parts, general service buttons and pipes. Some of the personal items bear soldiers’ initials.
An MoD official said the US soldier “may have broken international law”........ The MoD said the Pentagon had been informed and added: “This is a matter for the US military.”
The US defence department did not respond to a request for comment.
I have no doubt the matter is being investigated and if any crimes were committed they will be prosecuted and no doubt the items recovered will be returned to the UK MoD in due course.
Now as to the use of the word "Troops"....how many are we talking about that are actually culpable?
I also recall US Troops attending to abandoned British Cemeteries in other locations over the years.....so lets be even handed shall we.
There are two British Cemeteries quite close by where I live currently that are maintained by our Coast Guard troops stationed on the same Islands where the bodies of RN crew were buried during WWII.
Museums are full of items retrieved from old battlefields, tombs, and gravesites.
Now as to the use of the word "Troops"....how many are we talking about that are actually culpable?
I also recall US Troops attending to abandoned British Cemeteries in other locations over the years.....so lets be even handed shall we.
There are two British Cemeteries quite close by where I live currently that are maintained by our Coast Guard troops stationed on the same Islands where the bodies of RN crew were buried during WWII.
Museums are full of items retrieved from old battlefields, tombs, and gravesites.
I also recall US Troops attending to abandoned British Cemeteries in other locations over the years.....so lets be even handed shall we.
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One thing I know about the US military is that they believe in honour. if this is proven and individuals are identified, I have every belief that the full and heavy weight of the American legal system will be brought to bear.
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Depends if they found remains as well, if not they might not have realised what they were, not condoning the act, just saying.
Trouble is while we make representations in the US we let it go on, on our own doorstep.
Trouble is while we make representations in the US we let it go on, on our own doorstep.
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IF the report is true then it looks like it was down to a very few sad / sick / mercenary individuals, NOT an entire nation, so let's not blame 'America' as a whole for this awful act.
It's very unlike the US military to act in this way and as others have said, they are usually way ahead of us Brits when it comes to honouring and respecting the fallen.
CS
It's very unlike the US military to act in this way and as others have said, they are usually way ahead of us Brits when it comes to honouring and respecting the fallen.
CS
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Here you go they were found in an old irrigation ditch.
Battlefield relics: Maiwand - Victorian Wars Forum
sounds more like a dump than buried with bodies.
Battlefield relics: Maiwand - Victorian Wars Forum
The relics arrived so heres some better photos as promised, ive only removed the loose dirt as i prefer them in dug condition,
Ive spoken to my friends son on the phone he told me that the ditch appeared to have been enlarged , it was filled with all manor of stuff and that some attempt had been made to burn it,the pieces he brought back were only a small fraction of what was there, enjoy the photos and if you have any questions please ask
Ive spoken to my friends son on the phone he told me that the ditch appeared to have been enlarged , it was filled with all manor of stuff and that some attempt had been made to burn it,the pieces he brought back were only a small fraction of what was there, enjoy the photos and if you have any questions please ask
sounds more like a dump than buried with bodies.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
When is it OK to recover battlefield artifacts then? Roman battles - all good, Napoleonic battles - all good, Boer war - all good. Is there some magic date that switches a site over over from being a memorial to a source of historic relics? I don't think so. There is usually some lawful control over such artifacts and their distribution and possible sale, but I can't remember, isn't the Afghan government slightly tied up at the moment? Clearly interfering with interred remains or even un-interred remains is something that shouldn't happen (don't mention this to the local wildlife though), but I suspect the first time this location came up on anyone's radar was 140 years after the event.
The sheer irony of what was once a great newspaper (before it became a salacious rag) printing an article about looting battle sites in far flung corners of the globe is obviously lost on the so-called journalist, who clearly has never visited any museum in London. Classic muck raking from a very old **** pile.
The sheer irony of what was once a great newspaper (before it became a salacious rag) printing an article about looting battle sites in far flung corners of the globe is obviously lost on the so-called journalist, who clearly has never visited any museum in London. Classic muck raking from a very old **** pile.
What I find positive out of the report is the attention that is being drawn to long ago fought battles in far off places where much gallantry and sacrifice took place.
Perhaps some of our latest generation might take notice of historical events that garner scant attention these days.
Perhaps some of our latest generation might take notice of historical events that garner scant attention these days.
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Plundering or looting is strictly controlled, especially in a war zone. Whilst some common items can be allowed everything found has to be reported to and cleared by a reviewing officer. Especially if it might be connected to a burial or battle site and could be considered to be of historic interest.
Shipping items home for sale without going through such a process is a Court Martial offence.
Shipping items home for sale without going through such a process is a Court Martial offence.
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As I said
Trouble is while we make representations in the US we let it go on, on our own doorstep.
Dutch kicking up a stink about their war graves first link, while along with the MOD turning a blind eye to ours, see second link
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...and-war-wrecks
http://thepipeline.info/blog/2016/05...-fails-to-act/
https://britainatwar.keypublishing.c...h-allegations/
Trouble is while we make representations in the US we let it go on, on our own doorstep.
Dutch kicking up a stink about their war graves first link, while along with the MOD turning a blind eye to ours, see second link
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...and-war-wrecks
http://thepipeline.info/blog/2016/05...-fails-to-act/
https://britainatwar.keypublishing.c...h-allegations/
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Plundering or looting is strictly controlled, especially in a war zone. Whilst some common items can be allowed everything found has to be reported to and cleared by a reviewing officer. Especially if it might be connected to a burial or battle site and could be considered to be of historic interest.
Shipping items home for sale without going through such a process is a Court Martial offence.
Shipping items home for sale without going through such a process is a Court Martial offence.
Gentleman Aviator
And then the Americans (allegedly) trashed a couple of Mk 53/55 Lightnings in Kuwait in the first Gulf unpleasantness (allegedly) thinking they were MiGs......
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If it's just abandoned/buried equipment, it's nothing new - aviation related - allegedly some Sea Furies 'disappeared' from Iraq after the 2003 invasion, and there have been numerous (official) recoveries from Afghanistan of parts of quite rare or even unique military aircraft (and vehicles) from dumps.
In Mogadishu I lived adjacent to the end of the runway where the remains of the Somali Air Force and some commercial airplanes had been pushed into one huge jumbled up pile.
Even despite that....there were innovative folks that were stealing Shipping Containers and salvaging Engines, Instruments, and other items from the wrecks and shipping them off to locations unknown.
As the Western Militaries were packing up....I was involved in making off with things that made our living much easier....Air Cons, food, Shade Cloth, Hydraulic Mules, Pressure Washers, the odd Toyota SUV or two.
At one point I had some young Marines delivering the stuff to me in trade for a crate of beer.
One Marine Sergeant Major....who was miffed we were giving away lots of good kit to the Pakistani's.....would tip me off to various items that were going to be delivered the next day......"If it is still here tomorrow!".
Quite often it was not!
Even despite that....there were innovative folks that were stealing Shipping Containers and salvaging Engines, Instruments, and other items from the wrecks and shipping them off to locations unknown.
As the Western Militaries were packing up....I was involved in making off with things that made our living much easier....Air Cons, food, Shade Cloth, Hydraulic Mules, Pressure Washers, the odd Toyota SUV or two.
At one point I had some young Marines delivering the stuff to me in trade for a crate of beer.
One Marine Sergeant Major....who was miffed we were giving away lots of good kit to the Pakistani's.....would tip me off to various items that were going to be delivered the next day......"If it is still here tomorrow!".
Quite often it was not!
I collect military buttons, and I often notice buttons on eBay which are claimed to have been dug from historical battle sites. Buttons alleged to have been dug at well known battlefields such as Balaclava, and US Independence and Civil War sites such as Saratoga command a high premium. Personally these don't interest me, first because I only collect buttons in as good as condition as possible and secondly it is difficult to prove where these items have come from. What I am saying is that this is nothing new, and frankly unless personally identifiable items from known grave sites are being sold I see little to object to.
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What goes around, comes around.............
Re Maiwand and Afghanistan in general, nothing new in this world!...........an extract from Gladstone’s Midlothian speeches of 1879 observes to the good burghers of Edinburgh that:
“.................we have, by the most wanton invasion of Afghanistan, broken that country into pieces, made it a miserable ruin, destroyed whatever there was in it of peace and order, caused it to be added to the anarchies of the Eastern world...under circumstances where the application of military power...is attended at every foot with enormous difficulties”.
This speech was made nearly forty years after the disaster of the retreat from Kabul, so our interference in Afghanistan was old news even then; it would seem our leaders were (still are) incapable of learning from history, or perhaps they don't bother reading it anyway.
“.................we have, by the most wanton invasion of Afghanistan, broken that country into pieces, made it a miserable ruin, destroyed whatever there was in it of peace and order, caused it to be added to the anarchies of the Eastern world...under circumstances where the application of military power...is attended at every foot with enormous difficulties”.
This speech was made nearly forty years after the disaster of the retreat from Kabul, so our interference in Afghanistan was old news even then; it would seem our leaders were (still are) incapable of learning from history, or perhaps they don't bother reading it anyway.