Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

RAF Air ops (Systems)

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

RAF Air ops (Systems)

Old 20th Feb 2019, 15:50
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
RAF Air ops (Systems)

Hi all

Looking at joining the RAF for a number of roles, unfortunately CBAT scores just missed out on pilot, but could go for a few others. Currently looking into Air ops (systems) and Air ops (control). Having spoken to a few of the flight ops guys this is probably the way I'm looking to go but I have a few questions.

1. If I have achieved CBAT score for ATC is it likely I'll be persuaded down this route even if I apply for systems?
2. I've been told theres more opportunity to go from control to systems down the line rather than the other way, is this true? Is it likely?
3. Why do Flight ops guys get so much stick? Is it now an established branch?

If anyone is current or ex flight ops I'd love to hear about your tours and postings, struggling to make up my mind, logistics is also an option but my knowledge of this is very limited due to being fairly set on one of the air ops branches

Cheers
skiwalkcycle is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2019, 17:27
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: deepest darkest Wiltshire
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This is an aircrew forum..... so unless you want a lot of banter and waffle or how good it used to be, it may be better to go VFR direct to Ops or Air Tragic forums.

Good luck
Tea White Zero is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2019, 17:32
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 2,360
Received 456 Likes on 121 Posts
TW0

That’s a bit harsh. The forum is called Military Aviation. I’m pretty sure that includes ATC etc.

I can’t help the OP in any way though.

BV
Bob Viking is online now  
Old 20th Feb 2019, 17:33
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Please check your PMs
Mahogany_Bomber is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2019, 19:10
  #5 (permalink)  

Gentleman Aviator
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Teetering Towers - somewhere in the Shires
Age: 74
Posts: 3,691
Received 42 Likes on 21 Posts
This is an aircrew forum.....
Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.
your point is TWZ?

Teeters (a pilot)
teeteringhead is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2019, 19:22
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,913
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Mahogany_Bomber
Please check your PMs

As a new joiner, I don't think the OP can access PMs until after a probationary period.
spekesoftly is online now  
Old 20th Feb 2019, 20:03
  #7 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 80
Posts: 16,777
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
I think he can read and maybe even reply.

Not familiar with the terms mentioned but if Control is ATC and Systems is fighter control or battle management, they are poles apart but the aptitude requirements are similar.

Is WSO not an option or is that the Systems job? Again poles apart but transfer from ATC to WSO is a trodden path.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2019, 20:31
  #8 (permalink)  
XFC
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
I think he can read and maybe even reply.

Not familiar with the terms mentioned but if Control is ATC and Systems is fighter control or battle management, they are poles apart but the aptitude requirements are similar.

Is WSO not an option or is that the Systems job? Again poles apart but transfer from ATC to WSO is a trodden path.
Air Ops is the new combined name for ATC and ABM.

Consider Air Ops (S) as new money for flight ops, surveillance ABM, space. Air Ops (C) is an amalgam of ABM controllers and ATC. There is combined training pipelines in the work but at the merger is was more a name change without any noticable questions.

In response to the OP:

1. Yes, if you've achieved high enough aptitude they will try and push you down Air Ops (C) first. They are usually most in need of manpower.

2. Traditionally, people have found it alot easier to go from Air Ops (C) to (S). Generally (S) requires a lower aptitude and seen as an easier transition. If you do qualify as a (C) though, manning is unlikely to be willing to let you go (see point 1).

3. Right or wrong, flight ops is/was seen as a bit of a dumping ground for those who had failed phase 2 training in other branches. Hence the banter directed at them.

Personally, if you have the aptitude for (C) then go for it. I found the job far more challenging and interesting that what you could see the systems guys doing. With the addition of ATC postings that has expanded.
XFC is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2019, 21:12
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,786
Received 129 Likes on 58 Posts
Many years as an ATCO under my belt. Using current terminology, Air Ops C is likely to offer, IMO, a far greater diversity of posting options/scenarios than being Air Ops S.

I know the world has changed a lot since I left in 94, but the core differences remain. It would need someone current to comment on other ‘opportunities’ ... for my part I also diverted into Int and War Plans & Policy, so there is also life beyond a radar tube! Promotion ladders have changed dramatically, I’m sure, but again someone current is needed. We did have an ATCO make 2*

Good luck!

Last edited by MPN11; 21st Feb 2019 at 01:30.
MPN11 is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2019, 21:54
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,821
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It’s been a few years but I always thought the controllers had the sexier jobs. Flight Ops, a relatively new creation in the late noughties, seemed to be full of odd-ball youngsters nobody else wanted (OK, a generalisation) and commissioned SNCOs who spent most of their time clearing-up after the aforementioned youngsters.

Good luck in whichever role you choose.
Cows getting bigger is offline  
Old 21st Feb 2019, 08:36
  #11 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks for all the replies!

WSO not an option - same test that prevented my pilot application going forward also meant I couldn't go into this branch. With regards from going across branches as an officer (say ATC->WSO) is that common in the current RAF? I'm fully intending on making a career out of my choice, but its unclear if a branch change is possible as an officer or just through a commission

I think I'm going to go down the systems route for now, and possibly reconsider if offered a role in the control trade as I have the aptitude scores. I've heard that control rarely escape the tower due to manpower requirement, but if a current or recent ATC appears I'd like to know their opinion on this!

Thanks again all
skiwalkcycle is offline  
Old 21st Feb 2019, 20:13
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: deepest darkest Wiltshire
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
i was merely looking at the string at the top of the page - PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation.........

was just trying to protect a young'un from the usual backlash, but I stand corrected

Last edited by Tea White Zero; 21st Feb 2019 at 21:35.
Tea White Zero is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2019, 00:09
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,786
Received 129 Likes on 58 Posts
Originally Posted by Tea White Zero
i was merely looking at the string at the top of the page - PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation.........

was just trying to protect a young'un from the usual backlash, but I stand corrected
Yes, we are one family here!!

Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment
MPN11 is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2019, 13:27
  #14 (permalink)  
XFC
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by skiwalkcycle
Thanks for all the replies!

WSO not an option - same test that prevented my pilot application going forward also meant I couldn't go into this branch. With regards from going across branches as an officer (say ATC->WSO) is that common in the current RAF? I'm fully intending on making a career out of my choice, but its unclear if a branch change is possible as an officer or just through a commission

I think I'm going to go down the systems route for now, and possibly reconsider if offered a role in the control trade as I have the aptitude scores. I've heard that control rarely escape the tower due to manpower requirement, but if a current or recent ATC appears I'd like to know their opinion on this!

Thanks again all
Point to note, you'll not be 'ATC' any more, you'll be Air Ops (C). Pedantic maybe but it's an important point as the 'never escaping the tower' line doesn't hold any more.

As Air Ops (C) you could be controlling from a tower, a CRC or the E-3D (future Air C2 platforms could be a big draw for Air Ops (C) manpower). There is also opportunity for exchange to the army or RM as the SO3 BM and cross posting to Typhoon Lightning forces as the BM SME. They are actively pushing the cross pollination of controller jobs to prove the merger a success. If you're looking at the Air Ops branch I can't recommend at least attempting the control side of it enough.

Full disclosure, I am a current Air Ops (C) so may be biased!
XFC is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2019, 14:05
  #15 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by XFC
Point to note, you'll not be 'ATC' any more, you'll be Air Ops (C). Pedantic maybe but it's an important point as the 'never escaping the tower' line doesn't hold any more.

As Air Ops (C) you could be controlling from a tower, a CRC or the E-3D (future Air C2 platforms could be a big draw for Air Ops (C) manpower). There is also opportunity for exchange to the army or RM as the SO3 BM and cross posting to Typhoon Lightning forces as the BM SME. They are actively pushing the cross pollination of controller jobs to prove the merger a success. If you're looking at the Air Ops branch I can't recommend at least attempting the control side of it enough.

Full disclosure, I am a current Air Ops (C) so may be biased!
Ok thats interesting to note, I suppose when considered as Air Ops (C) it makes more sense that there is an option to convert into a different role within the branch more than there was when they were separate branches! It seems its very up in the air at the moment with the recent changes, I've notified of a change to Air Ops (S) for now, but I appreciate your reply as it may come in helpful later on!
skiwalkcycle is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2019, 20:45
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,786
Received 129 Likes on 58 Posts
This discussion led me to discover another ATCO who did VERY well ... CoS Personnel and Air Secretary, AVM Chris Elliot. Obviously a very talented lady, who ‘branched out’ substantially!

https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisat...air-secretary/

MPN11 is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2019, 17:07
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 3,196
Received 415 Likes on 191 Posts
Originally Posted by Tea White Zero
This is an aircrew forum..... so unless you want a lot of banter and waffle or how good it used to be, it may be better to go VFR direct to Ops or Air Tragic forums.

Good luck
NONSENSE.

Read the brief ....... it even includes weather-guessers.
langleybaston is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2019, 17:14
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: deepest darkest Wiltshire
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
wow langers, jumping in 15 post late for something that has already been retracted with no actual advice for the young post starter..... well done you have added a lot. what is wrong with everyone on here? you try and offer a little advice and everyone grasps the non-essential. Do you actually have anything for skiwalkcycle?
Tea White Zero is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2019, 17:32
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 3,196
Received 415 Likes on 191 Posts
everyone grasps the non-essential.

I consider it relevant to protect the forum's continued tolerence of my presence.
Not being aircrew [despite my ambitions] or indeed RAF [medical reject] I just tried to serve how I could.

Think about it.
langleybaston is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2019, 17:37
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: deepest darkest Wiltshire
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
yep, still missed the point
Tea White Zero is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.