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First Female USAF F-16 Demo Team Commander Fired After Two Weeks

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First Female USAF F-16 Demo Team Commander Fired After Two Weeks

Old 18th Feb 2019, 16:05
  #41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ihoharv View Post
interesting background - just seven years ago was flying King Airs around Afghanistan...
https://www.shaw.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/1756017/major-john-waters/
And just to confirm, Maj. Waters is both the new boss and the old boss from last year's F-16 demo team.

A Tech graduate from Peachtree City, I'd say he's quite possibly the son of a Delta pilot.

_______________________________________________

After listening to a podcast featuring Maj. Waters it turns out that his father wasn't a pilot but that many of the neighbors were Deltoids with military backgrounds.

Last edited by Airbubba; 18th Feb 2019 at 20:53.
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Old 18th Feb 2019, 17:55
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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A friend suggested that she may have been sleeping with a junior enlisted Airman, and a fellow Officer may have ratted her out to the Wing Commander because they were jealous that they weren't selected to be the display pilot.

If all of that is true - again, it was a mere suggestion of what *COULD* have happened - then sh*t happens. You cannot put men and women together and not expect intimacy to occur, every now and again. It's simply nature.

Let's face it gents, how many of you would refuse her if you were young and single? I wouldn't....
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Old 18th Feb 2019, 19:06
  #43 (permalink)  
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A couple of decades ago a similar 'poster child', 1st Lt. Kelly Flinn, was all over Air Force publications and press releases as the first female B-52 pilot.

COLUMBUS AFB, Miss. (AFNS) -- A Columbus student pilot will make history March 31 when she takes the initial step toward becoming the country's first woman pilot to enter B-52 combat crew training.

Following undergraduate pilot training graduation and several weeks of follow-on training, 2nd Lt. Kelly Flinn will enter the formal training unit at the 11th Bomb Squadron, Barksdale AFB, La., to learn to fly the B-52 Stratofortress.

During the recent assignment selection process for UPT class 95-04, Flinn gained national attention when she picked the venerable bomber. Although she was aware there was a possibility she would be the first woman to get a B-52 assignment, it did not factor into her decision.

"There were several aircraft available that had the mission I wanted," she said. "But the B-52 encompassed them all. It's a combat aircraft with a worldwide mission, and it's involved in almost all our defensive and offensive actions."

After talking to several B-52 pilots during the two weeks she had to finalize her decision, Flinn said she realized it was the mission she wanted. "The fact I'm the first is an additional benefit to an already great assignment," she said.


She had an affair with the civilian husband of an enlisted woman in her B-52 squadron. She was counseled more than once in writing to knock it off but she persisted to the point that UCMJ charges were filed. Kelly claimed in her subsequent book that her only mistake was 'to fall in love with the wrong man'. Her family in Atlanta hired a public relations firm and molded her image as the female victim of male chauvinist superiors.

She was facing a court martial at Minot and a media circus ensued.




Sheila Widnall was Secretary of the Air Force and befriended Kelly to help her cut a deal to leave with a general discharge. Unfortunately, several other careers were scuttled by the charges of sexism and bias from what coworkers from the B-52 community have told me.

Years later Kelly is 'a pilot with a major airline' and lives outside of Denver.

Like Kelly Flinn, Capt. Zoe Kotnik is a Zoomie (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zoomie) with a female Secretary of the Air Force. I doubt things will play out so publicly this time. But, we'll see.
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Old 18th Feb 2019, 19:25
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BVRAAM View Post
If all of that is true - again, it was a mere suggestion of what *COULD* have happened - then sh*t happens. You cannot put men and women together and not expect intimacy to occur, every now and again. It's simply nature.
I may have you confused with another poster on here, but aren't you hoping to join the military?

Originally Posted by BVRAAM View Post
Let's face it gents, how many of you would refuse her if you were young and single? I wouldn't....
My God.
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Old 18th Feb 2019, 20:01
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ewan Whosearmy View Post
I may have you confused with another poster on here, but aren't you hoping to join the military?.
But it is reality, isn't it? And it happens in every, single profession you can think of.

These are the consequences - rightly or wrongly - of allowing men and women to serve, side-by-side. I am not suggesting for a minute that I'd want a country with Western values to go back to the dark ages where men and women worked separately, but it really is time that attitudes changed to reflect the reality of what progress has created.
The Military reflects the society that it serves and it is becoming increasingly unacceptable to fire somebody from their job for simply sleeping with a co-worker. This is the view of society, so it's time for the military to change with that.
You can either embrace the reality of the "new" world we live in, and be a part of the force that strives to change the currently accepted norms, or you can be a dinosaur that takes your current views to your grave.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 00:34
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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You can either embrace the reality of the "new" world we live in, and be a part of the force that strives to change the currently accepted norms, or you can be a dinosaur that takes your current views to your grave
Unfortunately, whatever civilian ‘society’ may or may not accept as the norm, in the military world that soesn’t really work. The simple, and rigid, rank structure and the differentiation of commissioned and non-commissioned requires clear differentiation on the moral plane. The system cannot accept the potential of coercion through rank/status differentiation if the structure is to survive.

I have known a few officer colleagues who have crossed the line. It’s not a good thing hearing about a female cpl being seen emerging from her sqn ldr boss’s room in the Mess in the small hours, or a female fg off having sex in a toilet with a cpl, or a married wg cdr doing it with a female plt off in her room in the Mess.

Proud to be a dinosaur.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 01:15
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Chalk me up as being a Dinosaur.....the Military does not reflect civilian society.

The Military has much more stringent standards of conduct than does civvy street.

Unity of Command, Unit Cohesion, and Discipline are ways of life and not subjects to be discussed or negotiated.

Fraternization between ranks and members of the same unit are very bad karma.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 05:50
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Chaps,
It is simply a fact that the military represents the society it serves. It has to or else it isn't serving the public, it's serving something else and that wouldn't be a democracy at that point.
Therefore, its values must be based on the societal values. In civilian life, people are fired when relationships disrupt the work environment, not for the relationship its self and it is incredibly difficult to treat a person equally when your romantic feelings are wrapped around your judgement.
If she was screwing a team member, or a young guy on her then-former Squadron, then I completely agree with her being dismissed.

However there needs to be a serious discussion about it going on when it isn't in the same unit. It absolutely does go on and you can't stop it, so you might as well embrace it when it is possible to do so. If that is what she did, and he wasn't under her direct command, then according to societal values, the dismissal was unfair so it's time to make some changes, I think.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 06:18
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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One of my company first Sergeants had this to say on the subject of military discipline: "We're here to defend democracy, NOT to practice it!"

Even though I may not have been pleased to hear it at the time, he was right all along. Accountability, serviceability and uniformity are the hallmarks of military order. A military without order is just a rabble.

Not that I wish to go back to living as a soldier now, but having done it, I have to agree that most of the rules are necessary to maintain order. How this can be applied in times of changing social mores in the civilian sector will always be a moving target. Sexual relations between members has always been problematic, it's not new.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 12:18
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BVRAAM, Are we correct in assuming you have never been in a Military Unit of any kind?
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 13:05
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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However there needs to be a serious discussion about it going on when it isn't in the same unit. It absolutely does go on and you can't stop it, so you might as well embrace it when it is possible to do so
BVRAAM, you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your suggestion (or your friend's suggestion) that some form of sexual impropriety is involved here. None of us does. There are many possibilities for a 'loss of confidence' including a range of indiscretions, poor management/leadership style, bullying (yes, women do it too), financial difficulties, personality clashes, straightforward failure to deal with the administrative aspects of job, or poor performance in the air for a post like the one in question.

As for your point about reflecting society, officers in particular have a duty to uphold standards that often exceed those found in civil society. for example, in the 1950s (and unlike in civil society) getting a divorce was a career foul in the military, but that is no longer the case, likewise being a part of the LGBT community. Up until the early 90's, getting pregnant even when married was incompatible with continued service; again, no longer the case. The world has moved on, but being e.g. an undischarged bankrupt will still have an impact on any security clearance you might hold and on your suitability to be in command of anything or anybody.

Similarly, if your behaviour undermines or risks undermining your credibility as an officer, especially if you are in a position of command, you can expect to be on the end of some form of sanction. That is why the RAF has for some years had a simple 'Service test' that is applied, which starts with any impact on the operational effectiveness of the unit; the significance of the impact increases with rank and it will also differentiate between someone in a command appointment and someone serving on the staff. If the 'offence' does not breach the terms of the Service test it is treated as a private life matter, otherwise action will follow

If you get into training, you will find that much is made of the need to trust your fellow servicemen and women, which includes where relationships are concerned. "Service before self" is a good working mantra for all military personnel - I hope one day you get to realise what that means.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 14:55
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BVRAAM View Post
Chaps,
It is simply a fact that the military represents the society it serves. It has to or else it isn't serving the public, it's serving something else and that wouldn't be a democracy at that point.
Therefore, its values must be based on the societal values.
Seriously. Stop digging...

((And if you do hope to join, you'll be serving the Monarch with OPCOM delegated to the PM and MOD! I don't see Society or the Public written down anywhere in the kill chain.)

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