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AFPS15 - government decision.

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AFPS15 - government decision.

Old 20th Dec 2019, 23:13
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by Jambo Jet View Post
ĒSpecifically, it is recognised that it is not as simple as putting everyone back into their old pension scheme. This is because some SP will be better off in the old scheme, and some better off in the new scheme. MOD will ensure all eligible SP can keep their accrued benefits.Ē

I read this as if we put SP back on their original pension schemes then everyone can leave at 55 without PVR and we will reintroduce the manning crisis we solved by getting everyone to sign up to 60.

Manpower strat plans better get on their knees to the treasury then and sort out a decent FRI to make it peopleís worth to stick around then.
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Old 21st Dec 2019, 19:43
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure why people would now all come out at age 55? 75 especially??
on a different note though, what will happen to any money money people paid in to top up 15? It was tax efficient with no risk.
if you donít know anything about that have a read of pathfinder from Jul last year. Plenty of info from FPS on page 6 of each mag.
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Old 21st Dec 2019, 20:44
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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The big Ďbutí here is .... would one be better off reverting back onto 75 from 15, or better to stay on 15? No one has been able to answer that so far.

(Top level PAS, 22 years on 75, expecting 14 years on 15 by the time I retire)
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Old 21st Dec 2019, 23:14
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wokkamate View Post
The big Ďbutí here is .... would one be better off reverting back onto 75 from 15, or better to stay on 15? No one has been able to answer that so far.

(Top level PAS, 22 years on 75, expecting 14 years on 15 by the time I retire)
Clearly, take professional advice if they offer you a choice of reverting. The annual allowance calculations which would be needed to assess retrospective and future tax liability on each scheme would be horrific, for one thing! But my non-professional guess is that youíre better off on the 75/15 combination. ĎFullí 75 would only reward you for 34 of your 36 yearsí service. Meanwhile the career-averaging of 15 would start from the high basic salary you were on in 2015. Seems ideal. But take professional advice!
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Old 22nd Dec 2019, 05:54
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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The calculation.

Itís certainly a complex issue for many that are staying for longer and want to know what the sums are. To many, however, the sums should be quite straightforward. I have a little over 9 months left. I know what my Lump Sum and Pension are expected to be on 75/15. I donít, however, have access to a 75 Calculator. Can someone confirm please that the workings are based on 1/47th per year of your Final Salary under the 75 Scheme? Iíll have done 16 years so will be 16/47 x Final Salary x 3 (Lump Sum) and 16/47 of Final Salary Pension. Clearly this Final Salary will depend on what the AFRB increase will be next year. Leave in Oct 2020 on an Option.

I did a little over 10.5 years on 75 and 5.5 years on 15. The difference is significant for me between the two, but can someone please validate (or not) how Iím working it out? Thanks in advance.
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Old 22nd Dec 2019, 20:55
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Is someone who returns to 75 more likely to leave at the 55 point now, if that turns out to be the direction of flow?
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 11:21
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by M1key View Post
Itís certainly a complex issue for many that are staying for longer and want to know what the sums are. To many, however, the sums should be quite straightforward. I have a little over 9 months left. I know what my Lump Sum and Pension are expected to be on 75/15. I donít, however, have access to a 75 Calculator. Can someone confirm please that the workings are based on 1/47th per year of your Final Salary under the 75 Scheme? Iíll have done 16 years so will be 16/47 x Final Salary x 3 (Lump Sum) and 16/47 of Final Salary Pension. Clearly this Final Salary will depend on what the AFRB increase will be next year. Leave in Oct 2020 on an Option.

I did a little over 10.5 years on 75 and 5.5 years on 15. The difference is significant for me between the two, but can someone please validate (or not) how Iím working it out? Thanks in advance.
Use the Pension Calculator as you have but change your date of birth to earlier so that you qualify for the grandfather rights and would have got to stay on the 75 scheme. This will give you the simple calculation for remaining on the 75 scheme throughout. I'm out in 6 months time and the difference for me is around £5k per year if was able to remain on 75 rather than transfer to 15.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 12:57
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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CAR Runway

I have done as you suggested and I see it definitely simplifies the projection.

The big problem with entering a false DoB is that it makes the lump sum commutation number completely wrong.

Would it be fair to assume that if you take maximum commutation that you can just multiply the difference between the full immediate pension and the post-commutation amount by the number of years until age 55?

If I am correct then my lump sum with maximum commutation becomes significantly larger if I were to PVR in the next few years.

BV

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Old 29th Dec 2019, 16:56
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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In order to trick the calculator what was the criteria to stay on pure '75?
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 18:42
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
I have done as you suggested and I see it definitely simplifies the projection.

The big problem with entering a false DoB is that it makes the lump sum commutation number completely wrong.

Would it be fair to assume that if you take maximum commutation that you can just multiply the difference between the full immediate pension and the post-commutation amount by the number of years until age 55?

If I am correct then my lump sum with maximum commutation becomes significantly larger if I were to PVR in the next few years.

BV

Iím not sure you can use it this way for the commutation as your age wonít be right so the number years to 55 will be wrong etc. When I tweaked mine it had my age on leaving as beyond 55 so no option to commute was given. If you use it as a guide to what youíll get if you leave now without commuting I think it works.
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 11:31
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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75/05/15

Is there any indication as to when we will know how our pension schemes will be affected and when a revised calculator will be available?

Can I assume that, since I had 15.5 years on AFPS 75 before the switch to 15 I can just revert to the previous 75 Tís and Cís?

From what I can remember that meant full pension at 55 if you PVRíd before that age.

Clearly this change is quite a big deal and more detail is needed to inform some decision making.

BV
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 12:56
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
Is there any indication as to when we will know how our pension schemes will be affected and when a revised calculator will be available?

Can I assume that, since I had 15.5 years on AFPS 75 before the switch to 15 I can just revert to the previous 75 Tís and Cís?

From what I can remember that meant full pension at 55 if you PVRíd before that age.

Clearly this change is quite a big deal and more detail is needed to inform some decision making.

BV
I think people should get together and fight to avoid 12 month PVR and also pension abatement due PVR due to yet again more messing around with pensions T and C in the courts. People shouldnít be penalised as a result of a decision to leave that has been brought about by another degradation in T and C that was promised wouldnít happen.

This should have been offered last time around, it wasnít, it should have been.
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 15:35
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post


I think people should get together and fight to avoid 12 month PVR and also pension abatement due PVR due to yet again more messing around with pensions T and C in the courts. People shouldnít be penalised as a result of a decision to leave that has been brought about by another degradation in T and C that was promised wouldnít happen.

This should have been offered last time around, it wasnít, it should have been.
If it's an early exit people want then there's a solicitor in Lincoln trying to make inroads into GB's old empire. Apparently he is successful and wants that reputation.
What is staggering here is that the CMs have given in, no retention tools, no interest. The young blood, apparently, is coming more quickly than the old blood is dying. Really!!!
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 15:56
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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A 'small' problem which might force an answer to this before long: how will we be assessed for tax liabilities around the Annual Allowance when we have no idea what pension scheme we will be on at the point of retirement, and therefore have no idea how much has been added to our notional 'pot' in the tax year ending in a few months' time? And then ask the same question about past tax liabilities in every year since 2015... this is a true clusterf***. Doing anything other than 'scheme pays' and waiting to see how it pans out would be sheer madness, IMHO.
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 17:13
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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There is not going to be a quick fix to this. Everyone has a unique gripe with being forced onto AFPS 15 and each case is subtly different (hence why everyoneís discrimination compensation may be quite different to each other - this has not yet been broached on the thread).

As a rejoiner who is not entitled to an immediate (albeit second) pension unless I serve to retirement age (55 or 60 depending on 05 or 15) I have an interest in knowing exactly what my retirement date is and right now I do not know when that is!!! I accepted service to MEOS to align to NEM. If I hadnít then I would not get the 15 bit of my pension until Iím 67 so I was forced to do this. But if I can go back to purely AFPS 05 terms then the retirement age should be 55 and there are rules to be followed for continuance if service beyond 55 is required; and to which there must be a mutual agreement.

The Terms of Service AP on CM page explains this!

I envisage quite a few rejoiners are in the same boat and many would probably be happy to stay in to 60, although doing so could cost over 100k in lump sum and 5 years of pension payments.

This is why I think that if SP are moved back onto 75/05 terms then they are fairly likely to want to leave at 55 and not MEOS. (And 75 pensioners more so as they cannot earn more than 37 years of contributions) This will surely affect the future numbers that manning must be relying on!

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Old 31st Dec 2019, 17:36
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jambo Jet View Post
There is not going to be a quick fix to this. Everyone has a unique gripe with being forced onto AFPS 15 and each case is subtly different (hence why everyoneís discrimination compensation may be quite different to each other - this has not yet been broached on the thread).

As a rejoiner who is not entitled to an immediate (albeit second) pension unless I serve to retirement age (55 or 60 depending on 05 or 15) I have an interest in knowing exactly what my retirement date is and right now I do not know when that is!!! I accepted service to MEOS to align to NEM. If I hadnít then I would not get the 15 bit of my pension until Iím 67 so I was forced to do this. But if I can go back to purely AFPS 05 terms then the retirement age should be 55 and there are rules to be followed for continuance if service beyond 55 is required; and to which there must be a mutual agreement.

The Terms of Service AP on CM page explains this!

I envisage quite a few rejoiners are in the same boat and many would probably be happy to stay in to 60, although doing so could cost over 100k in lump sum and 5 years of pension payments.

This is why I think that if SP are moved back onto 75/05 terms then they are fairly likely to want to leave at 55 and not MEOS. (And 75 pensioners more so as they cannot earn more than 37 years of contributions) This will surely affect the future numbers that manning must be relying on!

when your CM is looking to jump them self itís a dire position to be in. Rather than solely focus on recruiting, surely retention now needs to be looked at. Because I wasnít interested in my 75 pension when I was living it up Iíve now rapidly focussed that I should retire 5 years earlier than 15 planned for me. I wonít be the only one.
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 02:31
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post

Can I assume that, since I had 15.5 years on AFPS 75 before the switch to 15 I can just revert to the previous 75 T’s and C’s?

From what I can remember that meant full pension at 55 if you PVR’d before that age.


Bob,
AFPS75 T&C regarding pension and PVR was that you could PVR after 50 and before 55 and you got the pension you had earned (so slight deduction for each year not served to 55) immediately + the Terminal Bonus.

That was my main reason for electing to stay on AFPS75 and not taking the option to change to AFPS05 as I was in the long process of immigrating to the USA and was in the fortunate position of not needing to get another job if my pension was paid immediately.

As part of a much more complex plot, another reason for PVR'ing was to stay in the only post I was willing to do which was being converted to FTRS(HC). In those days (13 years ago), you had to take a 30-day timeout between RAF and FTRS(HC) service and pay the Terminal Bonus back - the pension stopped and I got paid as FTRS(HC).

When I retired from FTRS(HC) 18 months later, my AFPS75 pension started again immediately at the rate I had earned up to the point of PVR and then I had an additional small FTRS(HC) pension at RFPS05 rates for the extra 18 months payable from age 65.

Having since become a US Citizen and elected to pay tax in the USA rather than the UK under the US / UK Tax Agreement, I don't get involved in any of the changed UK tax liabilities - I mention that in case you have any intention of moving to Canada upon retirement in which case the UK / Canada Tax Agreement would be worth researching.

Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 2nd Jan 2020 at 14:15.
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Old 1st Jan 2020, 22:01
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RAFEngO74to09 View Post
Bob,
APFS75 T&C regarding pension ...

... reason for electing to stay on APFS75 ...

... my APFS75 pension ...
It's a relatively small point, RAFEngO74to09, but it is AFPS [Armed Forces Pension Scheme], not APFS.
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Old 2nd Jan 2020, 14:14
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Originally Posted by Abbey Road View Post
It's a relatively small point, RAFEngO74to09, but it is AFPS [Armed Forces Pension Scheme], not APFS.
Thanks - amended. I must have been having flashbacks to the almost monthly annoyance of doing all the page replacement and handwritten amendments to documents from the Air Publication & Forms Store (APFS) back in the day !
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Old 11th Jan 2020, 21:04
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Speak to your MP

I spoke with a Fire Union rep in Carlisle last week and they are moving forward, and quickly. They have a Union.
The RAF is not taking the matter seriously, as Ben has said the priority is explaining pilots in the hold.
If you, or your staff, are waiting for a pension decision before you/ they can move forward do NOT expect a rudderless system to provide answers.
Ask your MP to ask the SoS for Defence why those that risk their lives are being held whilst people on £100,000 a year are sat pontificating about when to earn their pay. Labour MPs will especially enjoy putting inept management to task.
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