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AFPS15 - government decision.

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AFPS15 - government decision.

Old 3rd Dec 2019, 19:17
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Al R View Post


It would be futile.

I donít know if HMG will simply authorise restitution or go down the compensation route. The possibilities are mind boggling. I have no doubt that many will have been severely financially disadvantaged. The opportunity cost is a major major exercise in its own right. I suspect HMG and MoD will try to fudge it.

The granular detail you can go down to is as specific as the impact of leaving, getting divorced, experiencing a PSO or child maintenance payments, or an actuarial calculation and it being made redundant.

If you go back to 75 and your accrual is different (in terms of date and profile) that has an impact on AA and LTA (probably unkindly so), and what about those who left because the pension got rubbish all of a sudden?

Itís a disaster.
The whole AA & LTA bit concerns me quite a lot. Having just been stung with a 13k tax bill because the MOD donít make pension input payments in a regular linear fashion, the prospect of another lump sum being arbitrarily added to pension pots again, potentially pushing peoole over the limit - again - is frankly a major concern. And itís not particularly fair given that as individuals we have absolutely no say in our pay, pensions hours worked etc.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 19:22
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Absolute shocker if true.

How would the system go about compensating people who made life decisions based on an offer that subsequently gets withdrawn?

Certainly can’t get a re-run of the past 5 years in the other career I would have chosen had the combined 75/15 pension deal not been offered to me.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 22:55
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jambo Jet View Post


Just run the current calculator with your current expected dates. And for 75/05 only make sure you are aged 45 or older on 1 April 2012 !
I tried that and replacing 8 years worth of AFPS15 with AFPS05 increased my yearly EDP by just £300. I doubt thatís correct, but the second lump sum has motivated me nicely, especially as it can be cashed in early with an actuarial reduction.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 07:06
  #24 (permalink)  
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I wonder how many left because the Ďsecond windí payment had changed. Out of interest, will reverting to 05/75 mean there is no offer of employment until 60?
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 07:10
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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AFPS 05 benefits, if drawn before age 65, are subject to actuarial reduction I'm afraid. You can expect the pension lump sum to be reduced by almost 3% for each year it is claimed before age 65. Sorry to be a wet blanket.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 07:15
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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The RAF are already short of key personnel in certain branches. Now that the 'rejoiner' brigade can leave at age 55 with a decent second pension, why would they remain in to age 60? The interesting question is those people that accepted service to 60 because the IP point moved from 55 to 60 with the 05 - 15 transition, will they be given the choice to revert back to MEOS55? Or will they just PVR at 55 and take the hit on their 05 pensions. Manning looks set to remain a challenge with this decision.

Last edited by Jambo Jet; 4th Dec 2019 at 07:37.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 07:41
  #27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Jambo Jet View Post
The RAF are already short of key personnel in certain branches. Now that the 'rejoiner' brigade can leave at age 55 with a decent second pension, why would they remain in to age 60? The interesting question is those people that accepted service to 60 because the IP point moved from 55 to 60 with the 05 - 15 transition, will they be given the choice to revert back to MEOS55? Or will they just PVR at 55 and take the hit on their 05 pensions. Manning look set to remain a challenge with this decision.
Jambo,

.. just one reason why this is going to be a ratís nest. Another aspect of ASPS15 though, in common with all other public sector pensions of the time, is that the Scheme Normal Retirement/Benefits age was hard wired into alignment with the State Pension Age via secondary legislation.

This meant that the age at which you took benefits could shuffle to the right in concert with State Pension. Ultimately, this is all going to be another nail in the coffin of a public sector Defined Benefit (whether thatís be Final Salary or Career Average) pension scheme.

The issue most pressing will be that of Annual/Lifetime Allowance implications. It is public knowledge that I am not the loudest drum beater for the Forces Pension Society any longer, but if you are a member I would certainly be keeping them close. Service Personnel need a professional body that looks after their retirement interests. One with properly authorised and regulated trustee and professional responsibilities.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 09:20
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Al,

so so in short, those on AFPS75 past IPP who were forced onto 15 (despite not being given the option to leave with preserved defined benefits at IPP), are now looking at getting their pension and gratuity uplifted back to 75 levels?

If those individuals were not previously going to cross lifetime and annual limits, will they be now liable as this could be seen as increasing the imaginary, made up, non-existent and Sir Humfrey led GAD derived AFPS personal pension pot by ďxĒ in one year?

So so in short, will people be hit with annual limits if previously under the old scheme, with an unfettled AFPís 75 they would not?

Lots of unanswered questions - many by people who are no longer in who have access to DINs and quite frankly, I donít trust the [email protected] to manage this correctly or in my interest now I am out.

As to the quantum of what I lost on a personal level, that now appears owed, a lump sum of 20k gratuity and around 130 quid extra per month. Thieving barstewards.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 11:21
  #29 (permalink)  
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The variables are endless. What I will be shortly doing is writing to the Secretary of State and going on record as an interested person. The problem is, as a non expert individual, you simply donít know what you donít know. If there are tax issues, if those tax issues are based on restitution or reinstatement, what happens? You only have to see how the government has been crippled and beset by problems relating to NHS doctors and consultants, and the WASPI women to see that.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 14:49
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
Al,

so so in short, those on AFPS75 past IPP who were forced onto 15 (despite not being given the option to leave with preserved defined benefits at IPP), are now looking at getting their pension and gratuity uplifted back to 75 levels?

If those individuals were not previously going to cross lifetime and annual limits, will they be now liable as this could be seen as increasing the imaginary, made up, non-existent and Sir Humfrey led GAD derived AFPS personal pension pot by ďxĒ in one year?

So so in short, will people be hit with annual limits if previously under the old scheme, with an unfettled AFPís 75 they would not?

Lots of unanswered questions - many by people who are no longer in who have access to DINs and quite frankly, I donít trust the [email protected] to manage this correctly or in my interest now I am out.

As to the quantum of what I lost on a personal level, that now appears owed, a lump sum of 20k gratuity and around 130 quid extra per month. Thieving barstewards.
Vin Rouge,

That was my question to FPS when I asked if it was better to pay the tax or wait out via Scheme pays given the potential future changes. The reply that came back was effectively we just donít know, at this stage itís too complicated with too many unknowns.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 15:13
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On a slight side-note, as there is no 'pension pot' that has my pension contributions sitting in it, how can individuals be taxed on a lifetime allowance on something that doesn't actually exist?
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 15:36
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Originally Posted by heights good View Post
On a slight side-note, as there is no 'pension pot' that has my pension contributions sitting in it, how can individuals be taxed on a lifetime allowance on something that doesn't actually exist?
There are a number of Benefit Crystallisation Events (BCE) which apply at the time and point you trigger one of them. Itís at that point that your ípotí (notional or otherwise) is calculated and a tax charge considered against it.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 17:41
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by heights good View Post
On a slight side-note, as there is no 'pension pot' that has my pension contributions sitting in it, how can individuals be taxed on a lifetime allowance on something that doesn't actually exist?
I'm not sure of that either. Another class action should stick it up 'em.

Its just another underhand means to effectively reduce state liabilities on previous guarantees, and it stinks. The actuarial calculations are done by a government department, so I guess marking your own homework and making the figures work is what gets you a M/O/C/KBE these days.
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Old 19th Dec 2019, 13:39
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So, having left in late 2015 and done 'six months for free' having been forced to move onto 15, does this mean that I declare that I never wanted to be put into 15 and roll those lost six months back into 75 terms?
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Old 20th Dec 2019, 07:20
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Announcement:
Armed Forces Pensions - McCloud Update December 2019


This bulletin adds context for armed forces personnel on the pre-2015 pension scheme as a result of the McCloud judgment.
19/12/2019

Service Personnel (SP) may have read recent newspaper articles stating that all eligible* public service pension scheme members will be placed back into their pre-2015 pension scheme as a result of the McCloud judgment. This bulletin adds context for Armed Forces personnel.

The decision on remedy is yet to be decided by the employment tribunal. The government is engaged with the litigants, the employment tribunal, and representatives of all public service pension schemes to agree how the discrimination will be addressed.

MOD remuneration staff are working with HMT and other government departments to ensure that the unique nature of the Armed Forces Pension Scheme is taken into consideration in any remedy solution. Specifically, it is recognised that it is not as simple as putting everyone back into their old pension scheme. This is because some SP will be better off in the old scheme, and some better off in the new scheme. MOD will ensure all eligible SP can keep their accrued benefits.

The Employment Tribunal will agree the timings of any remedy and MOD will provide further updates as information becomes available. If you are part of the Civil Service Pensions Scheme, you can find the latest updates via the Civil Service Pensions website – McCloud judgment.



* Eligible SP are those who were in Service on 31 Mar 12 and 1 Apr 15 plus those SP who left Service before 31 Mar 12 but subsequently re-entered the pension scheme within the allotted time.
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Old 20th Dec 2019, 08:39
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Good post Stuff. That quote seems to post a positive outlook for all involved. I do hope that is the real outcome!

OAP
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Old 20th Dec 2019, 09:33
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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When AFPS05 arrived we were all sent a chit asking us if we wanted to transfer or not. Why can't they just do the same again and this time ask if you want to revert to 75 or stay with 15? They seem to be making this sound far more complicated that it really is.
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Old 20th Dec 2019, 18:54
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ĒSpecifically, it is recognised that it is not as simple as putting everyone back into their old pension scheme. This is because some SP will be better off in the old scheme, and some better off in the new scheme. MOD will ensure all eligible SP can keep their accrued benefits.Ē

I read this as if we put SP back on their original pension schemes then everyone can leave at 55 without PVR and we will reintroduce the manning crisis we solved by getting everyone to sign up to 60.

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Old 20th Dec 2019, 19:05
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The FBU will now pursue compensation for injury to feelings and compensation for financial losses for claimants who lost money due to the changes.


My feelings were hurt.


https://www.fbu.org.uk/news/2019/12/...CQPHtqhGH-Viqg

Last edited by Countdown begins; 20th Dec 2019 at 19:34.
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Old 20th Dec 2019, 22:09
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stuff View Post
When AFPS05 arrived we were all sent a chit asking us if we wanted to transfer or not. Why can't they just do the same again and this time ask if you want to revert to 75 or stay with 15? They seem to be making this sound far more complicated that it really is.
I'm sure that's what they will do, but between complex pensions and bewildering tax issues the choice won't be easy
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