MoD may destroy Mull of Kintyre Chinook crash records
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Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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If I’d have done this CFIT with an aircraft that had potentially spooled up to uncontrollable full power, with no instrument flying or icing clearance, that even the test pilots refused to fly..... my friends would have been a little bit peeed off.
of course this may not have happened, nobody knows. But it had happened before and the crew were ACTUALLY worried about it happening pre flight
of course this may not have happened, nobody knows. But it had happened before and the crew were ACTUALLY worried about it happening pre flight
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Avoid imitations
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I do wish the minority would do the vast majority the courtesy of reading the facts before launching into speculation and denigrating the pilots.
There is a reason why Lord Philip recommended the setting aside of the gross negligence findings, and Government and MoD rolled belly up.
On 2 June 1994, the Chinook HC Mk2 had a ground training and familiarisation clearance only, and was ‘not to be relied upon in any way whatsoever’. Lord Philip confirmed this was ‘mandated’ upon the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff. (MoK Review report, para 2.5.8). MoD finally conceded this, in writing, on 28 February 2012.
The question which MoD will not answer is, why did AVM Anthony Bagnall ignore this mandate and release the Mk2 to service? Who else was involved? MoD has named only one other - Controller Aircraft, who issued the mandate to Bagnall. Most would think that unlikely, and it is not the only time he has been fingered by the same people who then spent years defending the decision to blame the pilots, and continue to brief against them to the media. Controller Aircraft has never lowered himself to their level; and nor has his successor who was in post in June 1994.
That is why the historical papers are so important.
Please think about these facts before posting.
There is a reason why Lord Philip recommended the setting aside of the gross negligence findings, and Government and MoD rolled belly up.
On 2 June 1994, the Chinook HC Mk2 had a ground training and familiarisation clearance only, and was ‘not to be relied upon in any way whatsoever’. Lord Philip confirmed this was ‘mandated’ upon the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff. (MoK Review report, para 2.5.8). MoD finally conceded this, in writing, on 28 February 2012.
The question which MoD will not answer is, why did AVM Anthony Bagnall ignore this mandate and release the Mk2 to service? Who else was involved? MoD has named only one other - Controller Aircraft, who issued the mandate to Bagnall. Most would think that unlikely, and it is not the only time he has been fingered by the same people who then spent years defending the decision to blame the pilots, and continue to brief against them to the media. Controller Aircraft has never lowered himself to their level; and nor has his successor who was in post in June 1994.
That is why the historical papers are so important.
Please think about these facts before posting.
It would appear the immediate priority is to ensure permanent preservation of ALL records, documents, evidence, transcripts....etc.....guaranteed by each and every authority in possession of same.
Then, another and final investigation take place that undertakes to fully document everything related to this tragedy....create a Time Line and Chronological review of Statements, Documents, etc to document the exact chain of events that transpired.
It should address each issue, disputed point, decision, and action taken by the various authorities to determine what actually transpired before, at the time of the accident, and afterwards.
Let the Chips lay where they fall....and if there is blame to be fixed.....do so without partiality and favor.
Just set forth what is known and how it all relates to everything else.
But....the very first step has to be the preservation of the documentary evidence.
Then, another and final investigation take place that undertakes to fully document everything related to this tragedy....create a Time Line and Chronological review of Statements, Documents, etc to document the exact chain of events that transpired.
It should address each issue, disputed point, decision, and action taken by the various authorities to determine what actually transpired before, at the time of the accident, and afterwards.
Let the Chips lay where they fall....and if there is blame to be fixed.....do so without partiality and favor.
Just set forth what is known and how it all relates to everything else.
But....the very first step has to be the preservation of the documentary evidence.
I have recently finished reading David Hill's "Their Geatest Disgrace".
David, Thank You for your not inconsiderable efforts throughout this sordid saga culminating in your most revealing book. I say this as a retired regular and reserve pilot on C130s, another fleet that suffered under the same and similar hierachy.
Rompers Green the cartoon strip in the Lyneham station mag, in the 70s and 80s, from the much missed Chas Finn-Kelcey, was so correct with the AOC and CinCs,
" Dam Truckies" regular comments.
I was an early signature on this petition.
Perhaps "Their Greatest Disgrace" should be compulsory reading before posting on this forum.
1066
David, Thank You for your not inconsiderable efforts throughout this sordid saga culminating in your most revealing book. I say this as a retired regular and reserve pilot on C130s, another fleet that suffered under the same and similar hierachy.
Rompers Green the cartoon strip in the Lyneham station mag, in the 70s and 80s, from the much missed Chas Finn-Kelcey, was so correct with the AOC and CinCs,
" Dam Truckies" regular comments.
I was an early signature on this petition.
Perhaps "Their Greatest Disgrace" should be compulsory reading before posting on this forum.
1066
Well said 1066. I'm not sure about reading Their Greatest Disgrace being compulsory but it is surely highly recommended reading, especially in the great value Kindle format :-
Anyone who has followed the far too many Airworthiness Related Fatal Air Accident threads on this forum would be more than aware of the massive link that connects them all; a military air safety system deliberately subverted by RAF VSOs for short term financial saving, and the cover up by other RAF VSOs of that subversion ever since. Those that continue blaming JO and SO scapegoats are what I term the MOD apologists. That others see them in a similar way is a tribute to the dedication of David Hill and his ilk who continue to strive for the urgent reform of UK Military Air Regulation and Air Accident Investigation.
Anyone who has followed the far too many Airworthiness Related Fatal Air Accident threads on this forum would be more than aware of the massive link that connects them all; a military air safety system deliberately subverted by RAF VSOs for short term financial saving, and the cover up by other RAF VSOs of that subversion ever since. Those that continue blaming JO and SO scapegoats are what I term the MOD apologists. That others see them in a similar way is a tribute to the dedication of David Hill and his ilk who continue to strive for the urgent reform of UK Military Air Regulation and Air Accident Investigation.
Couldn't remember whether I'd signed the petition - so did it anyway. Rapidly got a reply telling me I'd done it already. D'oh.... Anyway, shows that bit of the system works OK.
airsound
airsound
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Worth repeating:
Current issue arises from this, in Hansard...
https://publications.parliament.uk/p...t/00626w01.htm
Lord Chalfont asked Her Majesty's Government:
But the lead branch (the Chinook Integrated Project Team) did not hold the most relevant evidence, because the Directorate of the Air Staff and Air Member Logistics had concealed it from them. The reply does not preclude destruction by the Air Staff or Air Member Logistics’ successors of that evidence - and that is what they did.
By the time of the Mull of Kintyre Review, MoD was denying the very existence of key evidence, such as the Release to Service and the policy statement that the FADEC software was safety critical. It had lied to families about both. Both documents had to be supplied to Lord Philip by campaigners.
https://publications.parliament.uk/p...t/00626w01.htm
Lord Chalfont asked Her Majesty's Government:
- Whether any papers or documents relating to the crash of Chinook Helicopter ZD 576 have been or are being destroyed; and, if so, whether they will ensure that there is no further such destruction.[HL2738]
- Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: None of the original Board of Inquiry papers, written evidence or papers held by the branch with lead responsibility for matters concerning the crash has been destroyed. When they are eventually archived, they will be assigned a review date of 25 years, with a recommendation for permanent retention. At the 25-year point they will be examined for the suitability for transfer to the Public Record Office in accordance with the provision of the Public Records Act 1958 and 1967.
26 Jun 2000 : Column WA52
But the lead branch (the Chinook Integrated Project Team) did not hold the most relevant evidence, because the Directorate of the Air Staff and Air Member Logistics had concealed it from them. The reply does not preclude destruction by the Air Staff or Air Member Logistics’ successors of that evidence - and that is what they did.
By the time of the Mull of Kintyre Review, MoD was denying the very existence of key evidence, such as the Release to Service and the policy statement that the FADEC software was safety critical. It had lied to families about both. Both documents had to be supplied to Lord Philip by campaigners.
My interest in both this accident and the Military Covenant is reasonably well known, so no apologies for posting a bit of cross-over......
The PSNI and Ombudsman continue to harrass elderly ladies widowed in the ZD576 accident, to hand over (e.g.) personal diaries of the deceased so that they may used in evidence against former RUC and military personnel for alleged (or yet to be alleged) offences in the 1970s. Let us hope the new office for veterans and Johnny Mercer MP jump on this immediately. Meanwhile, MoD stands back content....
The PSNI and Ombudsman continue to harrass elderly ladies widowed in the ZD576 accident, to hand over (e.g.) personal diaries of the deceased so that they may used in evidence against former RUC and military personnel for alleged (or yet to be alleged) offences in the 1970s. Let us hope the new office for veterans and Johnny Mercer MP jump on this immediately. Meanwhile, MoD stands back content....
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I have recently re read "Their Greatest Disgrace": as an Air Test Engineer at Odiham I flew with all of the crew of ZD576 at different times and played rugby with one of them a good deal. I find it so hard to understand why the MOD and lots of governments seem to continually want to denigrate them instead of just putting their hands up and doing what we are all taught from an early age, admitting that they were wrong. I do hope that they do not destry any documentation that still survives, out of sight is certainly not out of mind.
I have recently re read "Their Greatest Disgrace": as an Air Test Engineer at Odiham I flew with all of the crew of ZD576 at different times and played rugby with one of them a good deal. I find it so hard to understand why the MOD and lots of governments seem to continually want to denigrate them instead of just putting their hands up and doing what we are all taught from an early age, admitting that they were wrong. I do hope that they do not destry any documentation that still survives, out of sight is certainly not out of mind.
Never apologise,
Never explain.
Polish your brass neck daily,
You have no shame.
Blackfriar, if this were only about the tax payers' money wasted over the decades of Establishment cover up, the mantra would hold as good as for all the other financial scandals. This particular cover up though has cost lives (over a hundred to date), and will go on doing so as long as it prevents real reform of UK Military Air Regulation and Accident Investigation.
While Judges, QC's, Coroners, Senior Police Officers, Heads of Safety Agencies, Ministers, MPs, and even Manufacturers, are prepared to connive with the MOD in maintaining the cover up the urgent need for reform is obscured. Avoidable accidents will go on happening, and people will go on suffering needless death.
While Judges, QC's, Coroners, Senior Police Officers, Heads of Safety Agencies, Ministers, MPs, and even Manufacturers, are prepared to connive with the MOD in maintaining the cover up the urgent need for reform is obscured. Avoidable accidents will go on happening, and people will go on suffering needless death.
An update if anyone’s interested.
The thread title is a bit of a misnomer, as MoD admitted long ago it had destroyed key documents. For example, the ZD576 tasking records went in 2000, as soon as the estimable John Nichol asked for them.
More recently, and to prove again the validity of the above #135, further questions were asked.
The image below, which I hope is readable, is the first page of the reply to one question. The RAF’s Air Historical Branch, where the ZD576 records are claimed to be held, conducted three searches against key phrases – one of them ‘Mull of Kintyre’.
The reply is in ‘hit’ order. This isn’t the place to post the complete document, but I hope it gives you a flavour. The important thing is that, as predicted, the AHB doesn’t seem to hold the MoD(PE) Chinook Project Office or Boscombe Down records; and doesn’t seem to regard anything prior to 2 June 1994 as relevant, despite the MoK Review confirming the aircraft was not airworthy, only having a ground training and familiarisation clearance – something MoD admitted in 2012, although probably inadvertently.
It looks like only a small selection of Air Staff files are there. But kudos to the AHB for releasing these details. Increasingly, MoD is refusing FoI requests on the grounds it will take too long, meaning any request requiring a search of archives is unlikely to bear fruit.
Interesting top hit!
The thread title is a bit of a misnomer, as MoD admitted long ago it had destroyed key documents. For example, the ZD576 tasking records went in 2000, as soon as the estimable John Nichol asked for them.
More recently, and to prove again the validity of the above #135, further questions were asked.
The image below, which I hope is readable, is the first page of the reply to one question. The RAF’s Air Historical Branch, where the ZD576 records are claimed to be held, conducted three searches against key phrases – one of them ‘Mull of Kintyre’.
The reply is in ‘hit’ order. This isn’t the place to post the complete document, but I hope it gives you a flavour. The important thing is that, as predicted, the AHB doesn’t seem to hold the MoD(PE) Chinook Project Office or Boscombe Down records; and doesn’t seem to regard anything prior to 2 June 1994 as relevant, despite the MoK Review confirming the aircraft was not airworthy, only having a ground training and familiarisation clearance – something MoD admitted in 2012, although probably inadvertently.
It looks like only a small selection of Air Staff files are there. But kudos to the AHB for releasing these details. Increasingly, MoD is refusing FoI requests on the grounds it will take too long, meaning any request requiring a search of archives is unlikely to bear fruit.
Interesting top hit!
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Boeing: US regulator admits 'mistake' over aircraft crashes
From the Beeb today...can't post the link, sorry (too much of a noob apparently)Anyway....
The MOD's airworthiness/regulatory structure is a model of perfection in comparison to the profit driven shambles operated by Uncle Sam
Discuss