Warship - An appropriate response
Thread Starter
Warship - An appropriate response
Having just watched "Warship" last night, and HMS Duncan pushing in towards Crimea, my first thoughts were that a "Raid" of this magnitude (17 Aircraft including flankers), is pushing the boundaries (30 miles?) ,of what is an appropriate response to a "Sail Past".
Does anyone else think that the RAF/RN should be considering a similar response next time one or two of the bear's "rust buckets" passes within 5 miles in transit through the English Channel?
Or is it that Duncan is so confident of her capability that to respond with anything but cautious disdain would give the dog and pony show more credence than it is worth. Equally does that strategy transfer to the English Channel?
IG
Does anyone else think that the RAF/RN should be considering a similar response next time one or two of the bear's "rust buckets" passes within 5 miles in transit through the English Channel?
Or is it that Duncan is so confident of her capability that to respond with anything but cautious disdain would give the dog and pony show more credence than it is worth. Equally does that strategy transfer to the English Channel?
IG
Having watched the programme it seemed to me that the whole scenario was exagerated to dramatise a TV programme and show just how wonderful and cool the Royal Navy are in facing such a ‘raid’. No doubt the ‘seventeen’ aircraft would be the total over several hours and not some ‘swarm’ as shown for effect.
I think it is fair to say if there was any real threat they wouldnt see so many aircraft as modern weapon delivery would probably be launched in a stand off fashion from over the horizon,
The scene showing the launch of the Wildcat to locate the russian surface vessel that had ‘gone missing’ was also rather odd.
It came just after the scene where the audience was told that Duncan had the best radar system in the world yet a ship that had been shadowing her had mysteriously disappeared over night? Also when the wildcat took off on its dangerous mission flown closer to russian territory than had been flown before......they took with them a television crew?
Good bit of drama for effect and good recruiting material for RN but how factual?
I think it is fair to say if there was any real threat they wouldnt see so many aircraft as modern weapon delivery would probably be launched in a stand off fashion from over the horizon,
The scene showing the launch of the Wildcat to locate the russian surface vessel that had ‘gone missing’ was also rather odd.
It came just after the scene where the audience was told that Duncan had the best radar system in the world yet a ship that had been shadowing her had mysteriously disappeared over night? Also when the wildcat took off on its dangerous mission flown closer to russian territory than had been flown before......they took with them a television crew?
Good bit of drama for effect and good recruiting material for RN but how factual?
Thread Starter
STB
I tend to agree, the "disappearing" trawler was odd, no coastal cover, no other bigger ships around, the returns on the scope seemed devoid of any significant clutter? perhaps it was a Vegan cloaking device of which Duncan had no answer. I did not see any attack profile to speak of, looked more like: "lets all go out for a butchers and put on a bit of a show" to cover what would seem like a jolly. Bear? did someone say Bear?.
In the last channel transit, did we launch a shed load of 'hoons? - nope - just one, maybe two.
IG
I tend to agree, the "disappearing" trawler was odd, no coastal cover, no other bigger ships around, the returns on the scope seemed devoid of any significant clutter? perhaps it was a Vegan cloaking device of which Duncan had no answer. I did not see any attack profile to speak of, looked more like: "lets all go out for a butchers and put on a bit of a show" to cover what would seem like a jolly. Bear? did someone say Bear?.
In the last channel transit, did we launch a shed load of 'hoons? - nope - just one, maybe two.
IG
I have to agree with Simplythebeast! I kept asking myself the same questions! How come they lost a ship with their very sophisticated kit? Why did they not go to full battle stations with the threat of so many aircraft inbound? Instead they stood around watching! I bet the Russians are watching the programme in wonder!
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Moscow region
Age: 65
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pass through many channels is regulated by international treaties. English Channel, Dannish Baltic entry straits, Bosporus, etc are included. Generally, military ships are allowed, but have to notify N days in advance (N = 3, 7 maybe more sometimes) and submit a plan and description.
Russian rust buckets seemed to not violate anything when passing English Channel, othersise they would have been blocked, stopped, etc.
In a similar way the Ukrainian ships should have notified Russia in advance. BTW, there is only a 24 hr notice applicable there. And they (Ukr. ships) did it before no problem. But this time they decided to "test" (or were advised to test by their supervisors). Test failed.
Imagine that a person who has an entry visa to UK tries to rush through a passport control without showing his/her docs. Just saying that he has a right but ignore (f...) the routine procedures. Also pointing a gun towards immigration and police officers. Would be surprised if he would not land behind the bars.
Russian rust buckets seemed to not violate anything when passing English Channel, othersise they would have been blocked, stopped, etc.
In a similar way the Ukrainian ships should have notified Russia in advance. BTW, there is only a 24 hr notice applicable there. And they (Ukr. ships) did it before no problem. But this time they decided to "test" (or were advised to test by their supervisors). Test failed.
Imagine that a person who has an entry visa to UK tries to rush through a passport control without showing his/her docs. Just saying that he has a right but ignore (f...) the routine procedures. Also pointing a gun towards immigration and police officers. Would be surprised if he would not land behind the bars.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,803
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
Quite enjoyable, but I share the surprise up-thread that the AGI managed to deploy its Klingon cloaking device and drop off the radar. Likewise the aircraft picked up inbound at 10nm/500ft ... whaaaat? Suspect/hope that full capabilities were not being used/shown to us or the Russian monitors!
Thread Starter
A_Van
So is Russia requiring notification of passage, by vessels which are 30 miles from the coast of Crimea, in the middle of the black sea? or else they will send out 17 aircraft to you on a probing/monitoring exercise?
Duncan was well outside the international limit unless said limit has been unilaterally extended. Perhaps it was the presence of the helicopter near to the "trawler" that raised hackles. (Just "spinning the narrative for you")
IG
So is Russia requiring notification of passage, by vessels which are 30 miles from the coast of Crimea, in the middle of the black sea? or else they will send out 17 aircraft to you on a probing/monitoring exercise?
Duncan was well outside the international limit unless said limit has been unilaterally extended. Perhaps it was the presence of the helicopter near to the "trawler" that raised hackles. (Just "spinning the narrative for you")
IG
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
DipClear, or diplomatic clearance also applies to State aircraft. Some clearances are standing clearances for a specific type on a particular route and specified load. Others are for individual flights with request times from hours to 28 days.
A flight without clearance, or contravening its clearance, is at risk of interception etc.
Happened to us once over France.
A flight without clearance, or contravening its clearance, is at risk of interception etc.
Happened to us once over France.
Without carrier escorts Surface vessels would be at a Major disadvantage in the Black sea due to the proximity of multiple Russian air bases.
Under the Montreux Convention, Turkey controls the Bosporus Straits and the Dardanelles that give access to the Black Sea. Warships are only permitted to spend 21 days in the Black Sea and warships over 15,000 tons are not permitted at all, effectively excluding aircraft carriers.
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Moscow region
Age: 65
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A_Van
So is Russia requiring notification of passage, by vessels which are 30 miles from the coast of Crimea, in the middle of the black sea? or else they will send out 17 aircraft to you on a probing/monitoring exercise?
Duncan was well outside the international limit unless said limit has been unilaterally extended. Perhaps it was the presence of the helicopter near to the "trawler" that raised hackles. (Just "spinning the narrative for you")
IG
So is Russia requiring notification of passage, by vessels which are 30 miles from the coast of Crimea, in the middle of the black sea? or else they will send out 17 aircraft to you on a probing/monitoring exercise?
Duncan was well outside the international limit unless said limit has been unilaterally extended. Perhaps it was the presence of the helicopter near to the "trawler" that raised hackles. (Just "spinning the narrative for you")
IG
Sure, the territorials waters are 12 nautical miles only.
Probing/monitoring exercise is another point. NATO is doing similar things in Mediterranean for decades.
And no doubt the ELINT gathering aircraft in the distance monitoring Duncan's response/frequencies
Both sides can practice their stock and trade....so why the concern about 17 aircraft showing up?
Anyone remotely familiar with Russian Naval Strategy and Tactics care to explain it to the not knowing?
Anyone remotely familiar with Russian Naval Strategy and Tactics care to explain it to the not knowing?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,555
Likes: 0
Received 42 Likes
on
29 Posts
I tend to agree, the "disappearing" trawler was odd, no coastal cover, no other bigger ships around, the returns on the scope seemed devoid of any significant clutter?
"You canna change the laws of physics, Captain". Looking at the range of the Helicopter from the ship, the AGI would have been beyond the radar horizon of the Duncan and was either being tracked by an airborne platform that had gone off station, or the AGI had switched off its AIS transmitter (I assume that they will normally transmit unless operating covertly). At the end of the day, there was a NATO taskforce out there, and the AGI had slipped out of force coverage. No big deal and nothing unusual.
In a similar way the Ukrainian ships should have notified Russia in advance. BTW, there is only a 24 hr notice applicable there. And they (Ukr. ships) did it before no problem. But this time they decided to "test" (or were advised to test by their supervisors). Test failed.
Imagine that a person who has an entry visa to UK tries to rush through a passport control without showing his/her docs. Just saying that he has a right but ignore (f...) the routine procedures. Also pointing a gun towards immigration and police officers. Would be surprised if he would not land behind the bars.
Imagine that a person who has an entry visa to UK tries to rush through a passport control without showing his/her docs. Just saying that he has a right but ignore (f...) the routine procedures. Also pointing a gun towards immigration and police officers. Would be surprised if he would not land behind the bars.
I can just recall (as ‘real Lightning’ jp) a four-ship foray over the Russian fleet anchored off Papa Westray.
Without cause or consequential concern, a high level dive to drop a ‘boom’ was followed by an ‘adjacent’ low level flypast. Ahh, by-gone days.
Without cause or consequential concern, a high level dive to drop a ‘boom’ was followed by an ‘adjacent’ low level flypast. Ahh, by-gone days.