RAF Bomb Disposal to be disbanded

[HamishDylan]

Originally Posted by MPN11

Let us not forget the RAF Regt mini-tanks. It was/is all about defending the airfield perimeter, and beyond. I subscribe to the idea of 'specialism', but just wonder whether the back-up infrastructure justifies the costs.

4th Battalion the Blankshires, suitably equipped and trained on a permanent basis, could do the same tasks without the 'baggage' of an RAF Regt Depot and associated MoD or HQ Air staffing.

I know it's heresy, and I apologise, but in the smaller UK Mil we have today there are surely savings to be made.

But you identify the rub here MPN11; the Army rotates its units on the Arms Plot basis, and so the Blankshires wouldn't be in role for very long before rotating to other duties and then their successor unit would have to start from scratch again, ad infinitum. The very reason for the formation for the RAF Regiment in 1942 was that Army commanders didn't see airfield defence batallions as essential troops but more as an uncommitted reserve and, retaining full command, would relocate them without any permission from the RAF, often when the situation was at its most dire - read the history books about the fall of Crete. The removal of Army airfield defence units to the beaches left the airfield open to airborne assault, resulting in the beach holding troops being bombed and strafed from German aircraft which were being refuelled at the captured airheads.

I'm not going to chunter on about the RAF Regiment being trained and equipped for specialist operations at squadron level (even though it is true) whereas the Army is organised at much larger Battle Group level. When the Army took over ground defence role at Akrotiri, they replaced the RAF Regiment squadron of 160 men with a company of 120. This grew, by small increments, until they had 230 personnel on the same task, but without the specialist training, observation aids and communications set up. Once they fully appreciated the requirement, they were quite keen to hand the task back, but by then 34 Sqn RAF Regiment had relocated to Leeming and they just had to 'stag on'.

BTW, the Rapier decision was against all operational effectiveness and reason but there was no gainsaying the decision to hand over the capability to the Royal Artillery; a VSO explained it to me as ' it is the RAF's turn to lose the argument and we just have to suck it up and move on, if we are to get away with winning the arguments in retaining more strategic air roles.' You win some, you lose some; SDR-type decisions are always more political than defence orientated...

PS: The Regiment hasn't operated 'mini tanks' CVR(T) since the early 1990s. They have also got rid of Bofors guns and handed in their Lee-Enfields.

PPS: With sensible area defence, I've found that the EFI did actually defend itself quite reasonably!

[MPN11]

Thanks for that, HamishDylan ... a rather more profound analysis than my simplistic view! And, of course, I am now monstrously out of date! Your Arms Plot observation is, of course, the killer factor ... I wasn't really aware of how that works. However, at Waddington in 83/4 we were getting a RAuxAF Regt Sqn with their captured Argie Hispano flak guns. Not sure what happened after that, as I'd moved on.

[Davef68]

Originally Posted by Lima Juliet

Seeing the Army fixed wing assets coming to the RAF

Thought that had been cancelled?

[MAINJAFAD]

Rapier

Originally Posted by Lima Juliet

MPN11

i think the RAF lost the plot when they kept the Field Sqns of the RAF Regt but gave the Rapier SHORAD to the Royal Artillery. It should have been the other way around with the Infantry charged with ground-based defence of our airfield and the RAF doing SHORAD. Quite how we have kept the Regt is quite shocking really and we really the UK needs to go back to basics on its military:

1. If it floats on or in the sea then it is Royal Navy - I would include the Royal Marines in that, but no FAA.
2. If it lives in ditches then it is the Army - no Watchkeeper, Wildcat or Apache but get the RAF Regt.
3. If it flies it is Royal Air Force - no Regt.

Nice and simple. Seeing the Army fixed wing assets coming to the RAF and losing the BD to the Army is a step in the right direction in my humble opinion.

The RAF Regiment put forward an excellent business case for them getting all SHORAD when the decision was made to put Rapier under single service control. Army complained that they had been cut too far as regards cuts to the Royal Artillery and that they should get all Rapier. MOD sided with the Army..It then took them 2 years to get their act together to man the FI deployment (Mentioned in an RAF historical society seminar about Guided Weapons in the RAF back in 2015).




r

[Slow Biker]

Well PN and SASless, it was neither a bang or a whimper - 5131(BD) Sqn just faded away on 1 April, taking with it a body of corporate knowledge, ranging from aircraft weapon trials and surveillance to clearance of WW 2 mustard gas Forward Filling Depots, not to mention the grenade on granddad's mantlepiece. It was not meant to be like that, the bang was organized. There was to be a disbandment parade with Sophie, Countess of Wessex as the Reviewing Officer; this would be followed by the Mother of All Hangar Parties. But good old Covid 19 put a stop to all that. So after 76 years, that's it.

[MightyGem]

Originally Posted by MPN11

Sensible consolidation is appropriate.
And the Army ... with it's Air Corps and RCT shipping?

Both still going strong.

[Countdown begins]

Originally Posted by Slow Biker

Well PN and SASless, it was neither a bang or a whimper - 5131(BD) Sqn just faded away on 1 April, taking with it a body of corporate knowledge, ranging from aircraft weapon trials and surveillance to clearance of WW 2 mustard gas Forward Filling Depots, not to mention the grenade on granddad's mantlepiece. It was not meant to be like that, the bang was organized. There was to be a disbandment parade with Sophie, Countess of Wessex as the Reviewing Officer; this would be followed by the Mother of All Hangar Parties. But good old Covid 19 put a stop to all that. So after 76 years, that's it.

Get over it. Specialists aplenty and from my days in RAFG there are better qualified to do it now.

[Asturias56]

I guess they reckon that 75 years after WW2 they really are a bit of luxury................

[bridgets boy]

Luxury - a bit like military hospitals, there are other ways of getting the task done. Then something unexpected happens

[Asturias56]

Yes but you can't keep every capability forever just in case you might need it eventually

Once this virus thing is over there are going to be BIG changes - and (given the costs of the virus) BIGGER cuts

[Slow Biker]

Countdown. Yes I'm over it, just closing the story from Nutloose's thread opener. As an aside to put the record straight, the guys in RAFG qualified on the same BD, but not IEDD, courses as the sqn personnel, they were no better, no worse. Indeed, I went from the sqn to RAFG and later back to the sqn. The only BD in RAFG was exercise WP stuff; anything 'real' was for the host country.

[oldmansquipper]

Originally Posted by Slow Biker

Well PN and SASless, it was neither a bang or a whimper - 5131(BD) Sqn just faded away on 1 April, taking with it a body of corporate knowledge, ranging from aircraft weapon trials and surveillance to clearance of WW 2 mustard gas Forward Filling Depots, not to mention the grenade on granddad's mantlepiece. It was not meant to be like that, the bang was organized. There was to be a disbandment parade with Sophie, Countess of Wessex as the Reviewing Officer; this would be followed by the Mother of All Hangar Parties. But good old Covid 19 put a stop to all that. So after 76 years, that's it.

Thanks Slow Biker. IMHO, EOD was always the home of the ‘thinking plumber’ and I was privileged to have worked with the Falkland QGM (In fact I know him quite well) and some other specialists in the Late 90s. I was even given a guided tour of one FFD remediation project where I realised how serious things were when donning my S6 (With operational canisters) at the site entrance. Amusing to watch the locals walking their dogs on the other side of a wire fence.....

Thank you RAFEOD. Rest in peace.

[typerated]

Who does the bomb disposal on the RAF ranges?

Not that there are many bombs dropped these days! Can't be that much work at all.

On this subject , considering Hawk T2 carry no weapons, what is dropped/fired at Pembrey these days?

[Rheinstorff]

Originally Posted by Lima Juliet

MPN11

i think the RAF lost the plot when they kept the Field Sqns of the RAF Regt but gave the Rapier SHORAD to the Royal Artillery. It should have been the other way around with the Infantry charged with ground-based defence of our airfield and the RAF doing SHORAD. Quite how we have kept the Regt is quite shocking really and we really the UK needs to go back to basics on its military:

1. If it floats on or in the sea then it is Royal Navy - I would include the Royal Marines in that, but no FAA.
2. If it lives in ditches then it is the Army - no Watchkeeper, Wildcat or Apache but get the RAF Regt.
3. If it flies it is Royal Air Force - no Regt.

Nice and simple. Seeing the Army fixed wing assets coming to the RAF and losing the BD to the Army is a step in the right direction in my humble opinion.

Sadly, you are grossly mistaken that the RAF 'gave' its SHORAD to the RA. That was a decision made by MoD because Typhoon would cover the gap. It was a decision made in the context of the RAF Regt being very much better at it than the RA, as evidenced in the disproportionate effort put in by the Regt to raising the RA capability to a NATO-acceptable standard. Think inter-Service politics and the 'need' for Mike Jackson to retain a RA Regt. In the context of potential Russian air threats to bases, including Cruise Missiles, it might be worth reflecting on whether any of that was wise. However, the RAF Regt does undertake SHORAD in the form of Counter-UAS, and has for many years now.

I'm afraid the Infantry's history of doing ground defence of airfields is not a good one. But if organisational tidiness rather than effectiveness is your goal, then perhaps we should go beyond this and no-one in the RAF should carry any small arms (land environment weapons) or deploy beyond their airbases on the ground. Despite being challenged at every Defence review since the end of WW2, MoD (and its predecessors) have decided they need to keep the RAF Regt ground defence capability. Perhaps they all know that the Infantry skillset and the RAF Regt skillset are substantially different (fighting on and around an airfield, and aircraft, especially ones as sophisticated as ours has some unique challenges), that subject having been studied to death. Given that successive CAS's have seen it as a necessary part of the RAF's independence, even when financial pressure is on, it might be worth reflecting on what organisational tidiness costs compared with real world warfighting capability. I suppose generations of decision makers could have been wrong, despite numerous detailed studies over many years, and you could be right.

And as for retaining the RM who, for the overwhelming majority of their time, fight against land environment objectives, and not the FAA, who will for much of their time protect against maritime threats as part of a maritime battle, your argument doesn't really hold water. Not that I would agree the breaking out of either from the RN, but if I were forced to choose one or the other, it would have to be the RM that went to the Army.