The end of the AFPRB as we know it?
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The end of the AFPRB as we know it?
Well it looks like the impact of the Government’s hand being forced over public sector pay this year is for blanket pay rises to be replaced by pay settlements based on performance, location and efficiencies to ensure public sector pay is more comparable to private sector pay.
Blanket public sector pay rises to be based on performance
Are we therefore looking at the end of the AFPRB in its current guise? I genuinely have no idea how this will work for the Forces. If nothing else comparing military to civilian pay should lead to an increase. I can’t see any professionals out in civvie life accepting a military salary level whilst expecting to do several peoples’ jobs, secondary duties, on call 24/7 for extended periods and then deployed away from home for months on end with potentially life / death responsibilty levels.
Or b....
Or does this just make the AFPRB’s job even harder so the days of timely notification for a 1 Apr implementation will be replaced by months of complex wrangling and pay settlements coming in half way through the year again?
Blanket public sector pay rises to be based on performance
Are we therefore looking at the end of the AFPRB in its current guise? I genuinely have no idea how this will work for the Forces. If nothing else comparing military to civilian pay should lead to an increase. I can’t see any professionals out in civvie life accepting a military salary level whilst expecting to do several peoples’ jobs, secondary duties, on call 24/7 for extended periods and then deployed away from home for months on end with potentially life / death responsibilty levels.
Or b....
Or does this just make the AFPRB’s job even harder so the days of timely notification for a 1 Apr implementation will be replaced by months of complex wrangling and pay settlements coming in half way through the year again?
Melchett, you raise many valid points. The AFPRB is already hobbled by Goverment directions that X% is all they can afford during each financial year, but even when they try to focus pay rises on targeted choke point trades and branches, there is an element of blanket rises within those Trades and Branches. This initiative, which incidentally, smells like a crock of 5h1t and will become policy, it will reflect the inequities of the Civil Service bonus scheme and lead to fracturing of esprit de corps. We already have differential pay for different capabilities within the military, albeit an unfair differentiation, which creates some friction. This idea will be even more so.
I know how this could be spun: "increase innovation, increase new ways of working, roll out of IT solutions (so you have no down time), etc". It will also make some jobs more attractive (especially the procurement stream) where specious "savings" can be bow-waved to beyond a thruster's posting. The RAF personnel management system is still archaic and formulaic, based on a nigh-on century old model. I acknowledge there are changes, but for the most part career management is about stepping on to the conveyor belt and reaching the low-hanging fruit that will pass basic quality control rather than striving for the interesting and exotic ones, which means jumping off the conveyor for a couple of years. [Ed: a few too many metaphors?]. And then link this to PRP...
And that was just the start of it. Certainly, many in the RAF were on call 24/365, and that wasn't for wars, just routine cock-ups did see your leave cancelled and even, pulled-in off leave. Such aspects are probably part of a serious military job but, they have never been properly recognised in pay, never acknowledged by the "Command structure" and no element of recompense (that might be claimed as such) has ever been targeted to those effected.
I give you the example of a Squadron implementing the man management plan in the late 90's. Allocating personnel the target rest periods (two days in 7 not on tasked duty etc...) created big black marks on the stats due to shortage of manpower. Result, the Station man management plan was binned.
The only things that defined work levels were, Tasking, Aircraft availability, GASO's and the ingenuity of the individual! Bahhh!OAP
PS. Oh, and don't go telling me that the tasking was limited by some magic formula of aircraft servicability and manpower. Manpower didn't enter into it at all and tasking was always kept over the top.
Last edited by Onceapilot; 22nd Oct 2018 at 08:39.
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Still waiting for this years pay award to be honoured in full. Can't help but think that the MOD is kicking it down the road in order to reduce it's cost to the department as inflation eats away at it......
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OAP, I floated similar plan back in the 70s, I would callbit the strip system. As an example applied to a constituted crew: each activity would occupy a strip of time.
Take a planned flight 0900-1400 Monday. The strip might involve preplanning day of 3 hours, then a continuous strip of 8 hours rest, 3 hours preflight, 5 hours flight, one hour post flight and 8 hours rest - 28 hours in total. For simplicity I have omitted meals and pers admin. No strip could overlap.
As we know, all sorts of 'distractions' could be slipped into that strip.
Take a planned flight 0900-1400 Monday. The strip might involve preplanning day of 3 hours, then a continuous strip of 8 hours rest, 3 hours preflight, 5 hours flight, one hour post flight and 8 hours rest - 28 hours in total. For simplicity I have omitted meals and pers admin. No strip could overlap.
As we know, all sorts of 'distractions' could be slipped into that strip.
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And even a humble ATCO, working to a published Watch Roster that ensured adequate down=time, would get pulled in for all sorts of additional tasks. The 24/365 rule certainly applied.
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IIRC, I recall that the working month, for establishment calculations, was around 117 hours. The extra working hours, around 40 hours were 'available ' for other duties such as orderly duties, sick parade, secondary duties, leave and so on. As leave took about 180 hours out of the year or 15 hrs/month that 40 was nearer 25 flex.
With full manning and cold war peacetime, pre-taceval, it was
probably not unrealistic.
However how many people ever reclaimed time while sick on leave for extra leave as you were entitled?
With full manning and cold war peacetime, pre-taceval, it was
probably not unrealistic.
However how many people ever reclaimed time while sick on leave for extra leave as you were entitled?
How many even knew they could claim their leave days back if they were sick on leave? One place I was stationed had a policy of no more than 10% on leave at any one time, when I pointed out there were not enough days in the year to get your leave I found myself on a disproportionate number of orderly dog duties etc.
I'm not sure many would miss the AFPRB. The whole idea of the AFPRB dealing with the 'total remuneration package' was shot to pieces when they were excluded from Pay 2000, 2 x rounds of pension changes, the backdoor ToS changes ahead of JPA and then NEM. Beyond that we have the whole annual theatre of The Treasury setting the money for any pay award several months ahead of the Board under the autumn spending review. A genius move by HMT that ensured even the service chiefs would petition against any pay increase above that set rate, otherwise they would have to rob money from other areas of defence spending to fill the gap.
All we are left with is a quango that does the 'fronting-up' to the troops when in truth they have next to zero control. On the exceptionally few occasions that they have exercised the tiny influence they have (x-factor a few years back and the recent pay round) they lost a chairman on the first count and shotgunned the MoD coffers on the second, whilst leaving those serving little or no idea as to their pay or charges for months.
They should tell it like it really is:
The Treasury produces a simple note on the pay award the preceding autumn without any thought of the consequences and that, in turn, is what the Armed Forces will get the following year. Another, albeit longer note, will then be written several months later with evidence of poor morale, difficult recruitment and appalling retention rates. A few months after that another note will announce that we are below manning target finally another note will be produced to articulate how our military capability is degraded. Again. Rinse-and-repeat.
All we are left with is a quango that does the 'fronting-up' to the troops when in truth they have next to zero control. On the exceptionally few occasions that they have exercised the tiny influence they have (x-factor a few years back and the recent pay round) they lost a chairman on the first count and shotgunned the MoD coffers on the second, whilst leaving those serving little or no idea as to their pay or charges for months.
They should tell it like it really is:
The Treasury produces a simple note on the pay award the preceding autumn without any thought of the consequences and that, in turn, is what the Armed Forces will get the following year. Another, albeit longer note, will then be written several months later with evidence of poor morale, difficult recruitment and appalling retention rates. A few months after that another note will announce that we are below manning target finally another note will be produced to articulate how our military capability is degraded. Again. Rinse-and-repeat.
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IIRC, I recall that the working month, for establishment calculations, was around 117 hours. The extra working hours, around 40 hours were 'available ' for other duties such as orderly duties, sick parade, secondary duties, leave and so on. As leave took about 180 hours out of the year or 15 hrs/month that 40 was nearer 25 flex.
With full manning and cold war peacetime, pre-taceval, it was
probably not unrealistic.
However how many people ever reclaimed time while sick on leave for extra leave as you were entitled?
With full manning and cold war peacetime, pre-taceval, it was
probably not unrealistic.
However how many people ever reclaimed time while sick on leave for extra leave as you were entitled?
186 hours a month not counting weekends....add your detachments, deployments and ops then QRA station guard orderly cpl/sgt. Leave?
Yeah life was a breeze...
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Simple solution, bank what you can and run to the highly lucrative civilian sector. MoD can monk on about SCAPE as long as you realise there is no pot, no option to SIPP out the cash and no guarantee what is promised today will be honoured tomorrow .
If we all had a pension pot, my view may be different. But 2 major pensions changes have illicited the cynic in me.... As has the 0 percent pay rise whilst equivalent civvie pay has gone up by 25% in the past decade.
If we all had a pension pot, my view may be different. But 2 major pensions changes have illicited the cynic in me.... As has the 0 percent pay rise whilst equivalent civvie pay has gone up by 25% in the past decade.
Last edited by VinRouge; 22nd Oct 2018 at 12:44.
There is an idealogoical distaste in the current Tory party for pay rises that happen automatically - regardless of anything else. See the Junior Doctors (who are not so junior in many cases) and how they were hosed for pay and T&Cs to view our future.
Athough, are there any private sector companies who give you an annual pay rise simply for turning up?
Athough, are there any private sector companies who give you an annual pay rise simply for turning up?
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BA have 35 pay points. Most others are based on the same.
Thats what MoD needs to wake up to if they intend to compete. Pay point 35 if you can get there even as an FO is over 130k a year. Leave early or miss out. That's the message the front line guys are hearing loud and clear.
http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways
Last edited by VinRouge; 22nd Oct 2018 at 17:33.
Thread Starter
As for increments, I wouldn’t advocate endless increments but a pay spine does reflect increasing competence, experience and qualification. As such the top increment rather than the bottom increment represents what that role is actually worth I.e. what a SQEP brings to the table. Below that you are still developing hence the lower pay. No doubt the Treasury don’t agree, in which case they need to stop folk marking time for 2 years on promotion because they haven’t the experience to warrant the jump up a level.
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Erm, The airline industry.
BA have 35 pay points. Most others are based on the same.
Thats what MoD needs to wake up to if they intend to compete. Pay point 35 if you can get there even as an FO is over 130k a year. Leave early or miss out. That's the message the front line guys are hearing loud and clear.
British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools
BA have 35 pay points. Most others are based on the same.
Thats what MoD needs to wake up to if they intend to compete. Pay point 35 if you can get there even as an FO is over 130k a year. Leave early or miss out. That's the message the front line guys are hearing loud and clear.
British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools
Is that grass really just a different intensity of the same shade?
CPL Clott
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Corporal Clott, carping on about quarters is a red herring. Living in quarters, saving for a retirement home, letting rent drain your salary and watching house price on for us stupid.
How many now reach retirement without their own home?
Free medical and dental is also questionable as an advantage. Yes, probably easier access to a doctor and free prescription and annual check up. Is a civvie pilot's medical tax deductible? Free dental? An NHS dentist charges less than £20 for an annual check and clean. An eyesight test is also cheap and who really wants mil spec glasses from SpecSavers?
How many now reach retirement without their own home?
Free medical and dental is also questionable as an advantage. Yes, probably easier access to a doctor and free prescription and annual check up. Is a civvie pilot's medical tax deductible? Free dental? An NHS dentist charges less than £20 for an annual check and clean. An eyesight test is also cheap and who really wants mil spec glasses from SpecSavers?
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Quarters is an interesting question. With both of us serving [and thus moving all the time] MQs made practical sense. However, I remained on the property ladder by (a) owning and paying the mortgage on my parents' retirement home, and (b) buying property to rent out. That said, I guess the dual income/no kids dimension made that a practical and financial option not available to most.
On retirement, after a bit of juggling, we were cash buyers of a large home to actually live in for the first time
On retirement, after a bit of juggling, we were cash buyers of a large home to actually live in for the first time
VR:-
Hence the phenomena of the BA Professional First Officer. How can that make sense in a commercial airline? Time in the RHS is meant for preparation for the LHS. It just gives some idea of the value of the LHR slots and the power of BALPA.
BA have 35 pay points....Pay point 35 if you can get there even as an FO is over 130k a year.
