Cambridge Spies and vetting experiences
If you seek a broader view of counter intelligence matters then Christopher Andrew’s Defence of the Realm is worth the effort to read.
I Pledge Allegience by Howard Blum is an account of the Walker family’s activities.
On a slightly different tack, the recently published Agent Jack by Robert Hutton describes a little known MI5 operation of World War 2. It is not the easiest of reads and is thought provoking.
Finally, there is Geoffrey Prime, former RAF serviceman and GCHQ spy who was never “caught”, but was turned in by his wife after he was arrested for paedophilic offences. It is interesting that the parole board were happy to conclude that a man who had lived most of his life by deception no longer posed a danger and released him on licence.
YS
I Pledge Allegience by Howard Blum is an account of the Walker family’s activities.
On a slightly different tack, the recently published Agent Jack by Robert Hutton describes a little known MI5 operation of World War 2. It is not the easiest of reads and is thought provoking.
Finally, there is Geoffrey Prime, former RAF serviceman and GCHQ spy who was never “caught”, but was turned in by his wife after he was arrested for paedophilic offences. It is interesting that the parole board were happy to conclude that a man who had lived most of his life by deception no longer posed a danger and released him on licence.
YS
Last edited by Yellow Sun; 10th Oct 2018 at 17:30.
The old PV process was walk in the park compared to what happens now with the DV - their appetite for details of your on-line life seems to know no bounds.
Just check out Section 22!
DV Form
Just check out Section 22!
DV Form
I agree with the deep-dive into personal finances and the internet stuff has probably replaced the "are you a homo" as a source of interest. And rightly so now the latter is pretty much compulsory in the more interesting bits of public service.
In the latter days of the V-force, acting as a PV referee for a chum was quite common.
One bloke was asked about the sexual orientation of the person for whom he was acting as referee... "Normal, I imagine", was the reply.
"So you're not sure? Does he like women?"
"I expect so, most of us do. He goes to the same parties, where there's lots of crumpet"
"So there's some doubt?"
"Look, I haven't actually watched him having a $h*g, so that's the best I can tell you!"
"Next question..."
I pitied the poor old retired chap who turned up in his tweed suit at Brawdy to give me my initial PV interview. Summer of '76, a very hot day and the interview was to be held in a small office. I'd just had an hour at low level charging around Wales and had then walked back from the line. So I was sweating more than a rock ape at a spelling contest by the time we started. As the room was very stuffy, he had the full beneft of my sweaty flying suit and turning trousers - so the interview went remarkably quickly and he was soon on his long journey back to civilisation!
One bloke was asked about the sexual orientation of the person for whom he was acting as referee... "Normal, I imagine", was the reply.
"So you're not sure? Does he like women?"
"I expect so, most of us do. He goes to the same parties, where there's lots of crumpet"
"So there's some doubt?"
"Look, I haven't actually watched him having a $h*g, so that's the best I can tell you!"
"Next question..."
I pitied the poor old retired chap who turned up in his tweed suit at Brawdy to give me my initial PV interview. Summer of '76, a very hot day and the interview was to be held in a small office. I'd just had an hour at low level charging around Wales and had then walked back from the line. So I was sweating more than a rock ape at a spelling contest by the time we started. As the room was very stuffy, he had the full beneft of my sweaty flying suit and turning trousers - so the interview went remarkably quickly and he was soon on his long journey back to civilisation!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
A quick scan through that DV questionnaire shows how difficult and intrusive it is. Difficult for many to have to delve into family history of partner's parents etc etc. It is certainly not a form you can fill in in a spare moment.
I received two PV interviews, one in 1978 and one in 1981 when the first was due for renewal. I nearly screwed both up, but didn't, the first chap (and the interviewer was straight from central casting, he reminded me, heavy overcoat, Bowler and brush moustache of a humourless older version of Mr Grimsdale and for all the world had walked through a time portal from 1948.) asked me about my religious convictions to which I said I had none, he said you mean you're an agnostic, I said no I think we're called atheists. He said nothing more, let on not a jot apart from writing something down then moved on. I saved myself by showing off about having rowed against convention, the Chief Tech instructor told me what a silly fool I was then went off to see what he could do after having explained the situation I'd just landed myself in. It worked once I'd had a clarification interview with the Telegraphy School Warrant Officer. The next time was in post at Boerfink in Germany, this time a hail fellow well met type with a soft Scots accent met me in a far more informal setting, he rattled off a list of proscribed organizations which our lot didn't care much for, I was doing well repeatedly saying no. He then came to the Church of Scientology, who are they I asked and he described perfectly a small office on Goodge Street just off Tottenham Court Road, where passers by were approached by someone stood outside and invited in for a chat and a cup of Tea. I was one of the passers by who said ok, I'm intrigued. I told him so and the genial smile disappeared instantly as he started writing furiously. Knowing something was up, I asked are they not to be trusted or something, not wanting to appear too well informed. I managed to convince this chap that I hadn't been indoctrinated into anything daft and that I'd played the event for laughs. But he wasn't happy, but again I got away with it!
Best Regards,
FB
Best Regards,
FB
Last edited by Finningley Boy; 11th Oct 2018 at 12:13. Reason: spelling
Difficult for many to have to delve into family history of partner's parents etc etc. It is certainly not a form you can fill in in a spare moment.
proscribed organizations which our lot didn't care much for
Thread Starter
Fascinating tales, glad I don't have to suffer DV or whatever.
An aspect of the burden of PV that may ring bells is "can't waste a perfectly good PV" when posting/ promotion time calls.
When I reached PSO/ Grade 7 or whatever it is these days, instead of a forecasting post [forecasting was the only thing I was any good at by comparison with my peers] I was offered Leuchars or Bawtry as an admin wallah with 3 years "perfectly good PV" still in hand.
Not that I minded being spared shiftwork or civil aviation or an HQ desk.
PS Defence of the Realm is very hard going I find.
PPS I do love the "rockape in a spelling contest" must tell my son, who was a rock part timer at Scampton.
An aspect of the burden of PV that may ring bells is "can't waste a perfectly good PV" when posting/ promotion time calls.
When I reached PSO/ Grade 7 or whatever it is these days, instead of a forecasting post [forecasting was the only thing I was any good at by comparison with my peers] I was offered Leuchars or Bawtry as an admin wallah with 3 years "perfectly good PV" still in hand.
Not that I minded being spared shiftwork or civil aviation or an HQ desk.
PS Defence of the Realm is very hard going I find.
PPS I do love the "rockape in a spelling contest" must tell my son, who was a rock part timer at Scampton.
Thread Starter
I know of one case where I was a line manager referee and submitted a report/ reference that was meant to be damning and could not be read other than "I do not believe this person is sufficiently trustworthy for this post".
With examples.Result: person got the job.
Baffled.
With examples.Result: person got the job.
Baffled.
Way back in the early 80s there was a chap on the Buccaneer sim staff at Honington who had been vetted on posting from an NV flying job. He told us he was called one evening by HQ P&SS, then at Rudloe Manor, and ordered to report to G/C Somebody there at 0830 the next day to discuss his PV. So he drove through the night and pitched up as ordered. G/C shuffled a bit, hesitated and then said (or words to that effect) "There's no easy way to tell you this, but in the course of our enquiries we have discovered that your brother is a homosexual." "Yes sir" says F/L. "Your don't seem surprised" says G/C. "No sir, it was me that told you. Was there anything else, sir?" "Er...no,thank you..." End of interview!
I was called for an interview for my Top Secret Clearance Investigation.
Among the questions asked were some that dealt with prior criminal behavior.
As I knew I had a squeaky clean record (with the exception of a rather lengthy list of traffic violations and Drivers License Suspensions as a Teen Ager), I was surprised at the interest that was shown when I asked for clarification of what "criminal violations" were defined as being.
The Investigator's interest was piqued when I opined I had been rumbled for smuggling in conjunction with an immigration/customs violation for two countries in Europe.
The short version was while working for Agusta on the Libyan Air Force Chinook Contract, I and and a Tech Rep got done for smuggling my Flight Engineer out of Switzerland and almost into Italy at the Crossing nearest Lugano (the small one and not the one on the Autostrada).
We were paid in US dollars in cash in Lugano....and converted a months worth into Italian Lira there as the exchange rate was much more advantageous than in Italy. That required us to "smuggle" the Lira into Italy.
On this occasion, my FE had managed to lose his Passport in a location he wished not to discuss and we using our best thinking hit the barrier and when stopped fanned out an array of Passports and what might have looked like a Passport in a casual glance.
The Swiss Guard waved us through.....the Italians not.
A quick check of Passports readily determined we had one Body too many.
We got turned around and told to cross the bridge back to Switzerland....which we did almost.
We got stopped by the Swiss who of course wanted to see.............our Passports.
They refused us entry.
When asked where they thought we should go....being as how we were on the Swiss end of a bridge which other end was in Italy and we had just been turned around there.....they got a bit puzzled.
Being dead in the middle of Winter....we with our leather flying jackets....with sleeves stuffed full of bundles of Italian Lira.....when ordered to the Guard Shack which had the heat turned up to about 135 Degress F.....we began to sweat two ways.
They kept saying....take your coats off.....we kept insisting we needed to be on our way.....and in time they decided being rid of us was the easy way out.
As they gave us the good news to leg it to somewhere else....they suggested waiting till rush hour and take a chance on the Autostrada Crossing Point.
We did....as suggested might happen...we got waved through by both the Swiss and the Italians.
My guy decided it was not American Laws that got broke thus I was good to go.
Among the questions asked were some that dealt with prior criminal behavior.
As I knew I had a squeaky clean record (with the exception of a rather lengthy list of traffic violations and Drivers License Suspensions as a Teen Ager), I was surprised at the interest that was shown when I asked for clarification of what "criminal violations" were defined as being.
The Investigator's interest was piqued when I opined I had been rumbled for smuggling in conjunction with an immigration/customs violation for two countries in Europe.
The short version was while working for Agusta on the Libyan Air Force Chinook Contract, I and and a Tech Rep got done for smuggling my Flight Engineer out of Switzerland and almost into Italy at the Crossing nearest Lugano (the small one and not the one on the Autostrada).
We were paid in US dollars in cash in Lugano....and converted a months worth into Italian Lira there as the exchange rate was much more advantageous than in Italy. That required us to "smuggle" the Lira into Italy.
On this occasion, my FE had managed to lose his Passport in a location he wished not to discuss and we using our best thinking hit the barrier and when stopped fanned out an array of Passports and what might have looked like a Passport in a casual glance.
The Swiss Guard waved us through.....the Italians not.
A quick check of Passports readily determined we had one Body too many.
We got turned around and told to cross the bridge back to Switzerland....which we did almost.
We got stopped by the Swiss who of course wanted to see.............our Passports.
They refused us entry.
When asked where they thought we should go....being as how we were on the Swiss end of a bridge which other end was in Italy and we had just been turned around there.....they got a bit puzzled.
Being dead in the middle of Winter....we with our leather flying jackets....with sleeves stuffed full of bundles of Italian Lira.....when ordered to the Guard Shack which had the heat turned up to about 135 Degress F.....we began to sweat two ways.
They kept saying....take your coats off.....we kept insisting we needed to be on our way.....and in time they decided being rid of us was the easy way out.
As they gave us the good news to leg it to somewhere else....they suggested waiting till rush hour and take a chance on the Autostrada Crossing Point.
We did....as suggested might happen...we got waved through by both the Swiss and the Italians.
My guy decided it was not American Laws that got broke thus I was good to go.
I was referee for a squadron mate in the late 60s. The interviewer told me that it had been suggested that if "X" was offered "a bit on the side" he wouldn't refuse it. I spluttered indignantly that this was out of the question. After the interview I went straight to "X" and said, "Someone's shopped you mate". He replied, "Oh, no worries. I told them that".
I was always amused by the different approaches to asking if you were gay: the retired Lt Col types would spend about five minutes in euphemistic obfuscation and embarrassed apologies before asking the question; the retired coppers, on the other hand, would bluntly come straight out with "Are you a shirtlifter?".
I was always amused by the different approaches to asking if you were gay: the retired Lt Col types would spend about five minutes in euphemistic obfuscation and embarrassed apologies before asking the question; the retired coppers, on the other hand, would bluntly come straight out with "Are you a shirtlifter?".
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
And of course the 5-year clearance was good for the day it was issued, maybe.
Then of course there was the absolute confidentiality of the process - not. I think it was the Provost Marshal himself that blew one character. On our sqn we had a well known and predictable drunkard and functioning alcoholic. It could only have been he who the PM had referred.
Same PM, straight from a meeting with Ministers blabbed about an international security breach. Naturally I rang my ex-flt cdr who had been close enough to get burnt. He said later it had been difficult keeping a straight face when the plots interviewed him.
Then of course there was the absolute confidentiality of the process - not. I think it was the Provost Marshal himself that blew one character. On our sqn we had a well known and predictable drunkard and functioning alcoholic. It could only have been he who the PM had referred.
Same PM, straight from a meeting with Ministers blabbed about an international security breach. Naturally I rang my ex-flt cdr who had been close enough to get burnt. He said later it had been difficult keeping a straight face when the plots interviewed him.
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Been subjected to the PV process twice - on each occasion there was a degree of fixation about my ownership of cars!
"What's your current vehicle?" "How long have you had it?" "Was it bought new?" "And the one before that?" "Was it new?"
We dragged back through the years before I interjected ... "I know what you're getting at. Look, my wife is also a sqn ldr, we have no kids and no mortgage, and can obviously afford it. Shall we move on?" He duly changed the subject!
The second one followed a similar track for a while. Responses included "Used Jaguar XJ6" and "We're both wg cdrs now". He moved on contentedly!
"What's your current vehicle?" "How long have you had it?" "Was it bought new?" "And the one before that?" "Was it new?"
We dragged back through the years before I interjected ... "I know what you're getting at. Look, my wife is also a sqn ldr, we have no kids and no mortgage, and can obviously afford it. Shall we move on?" He duly changed the subject!
The second one followed a similar track for a while. Responses included "Used Jaguar XJ6" and "We're both wg cdrs now". He moved on contentedly!
My late father and I shared the same first name and residential address.
Unbeknownst to me, as a civilian he held a clearance for the post he was in ..
By coincidence, as I came up for my initial higher vetting, he came up for a renewal.
You can guess the rest.
"Sorry, but according to my notes here, you look a bit young for this one ...."
Unbeknownst to me, as a civilian he held a clearance for the post he was in ..
By coincidence, as I came up for my initial higher vetting, he came up for a renewal.
You can guess the rest.
"Sorry, but according to my notes here, you look a bit young for this one ...."
Langley Baston,
Really rattling good reads on this stuff include Ben MacIntyre's 'A Spy Among Friends' about Philby, and 'The Spy and the Traitor' about Oleg Gordievsky.
MacIntyre is one of those blokes who writes history as though it was a fast-paced thriller.
Really rattling good reads on this stuff include Ben MacIntyre's 'A Spy Among Friends' about Philby, and 'The Spy and the Traitor' about Oleg Gordievsky.
MacIntyre is one of those blokes who writes history as though it was a fast-paced thriller.
PV interview at Pitreavie Castle by a retired Sqn Ldr RAFP, I had been warned that he liked to stop the interview to have a brew, he would then resume the interview by sitting behind you to ask his questions. I told him to sit in front of me or I would leave, most interesting question, 'what do you think of Arthur Scargill', this was very early 80's.
I can't speak for the airman, but as a wg cdr I can assure you that "...confessing to homosexuality..." whilst not being 'out' (post 1999) certainly was cited as evidence of dishonesty and the subsequent failure to be granted a DV clearance.
Regards
Batco
Doesn't such policies re Homosexuality themselves create an environment that makes for the possibility of compromise that the policy seeks to prevent?
While doing Background Investigations I always thought removing the environment the fosters compromise would be the sensible way to the security apparatus to work.
After my time....we saw the US Government and particularly the Military alter its policies re Lifestyle issues.
We went from it being a "mortal sin" to be "acceptable behavior".......fortunately I left government service before it became mandatory conduct.
While doing Background Investigations I always thought removing the environment the fosters compromise would be the sensible way to the security apparatus to work.
After my time....we saw the US Government and particularly the Military alter its policies re Lifestyle issues.
We went from it being a "mortal sin" to be "acceptable behavior".......fortunately I left government service before it became mandatory conduct.
Rood people
Per Ardua