UK Air Defence - Cold War
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UK Air Defence - Cold War
I never quite understood what the Soviet air threat was in the southern north sea.
In the north it is obvious - Backfires etc flying down off Norway to launch cruise missiles at Scotland.
But what 'trade' were Binbrook, Coningsby, Wattisham expecting to face?
Obviously partly as a backstop to the above.
But there always seemed to be an expectation of tactical aircraft crossing the southern north sea to attack the UK. As in Priory type exercises
Fencers seemed to be the only aircraft with the range to get to the UK from Poland/ East Germany and they would have had to fly past/through Denmark/West Germany/Netherlands first - and until Flankers came on the scene this would have to be done unescorted.
Seems very unlikely to me
What Soviet aircraft and based where were a practical threat to the Southern UK? Assuming that the west still held Germany.
If the Soviets has come west to the channel then of course that would have been a different story - but then our air defence was set up to look east - not south!
I'm sure someone can put me on the right track?
In the north it is obvious - Backfires etc flying down off Norway to launch cruise missiles at Scotland.
But what 'trade' were Binbrook, Coningsby, Wattisham expecting to face?
Obviously partly as a backstop to the above.
But there always seemed to be an expectation of tactical aircraft crossing the southern north sea to attack the UK. As in Priory type exercises
Fencers seemed to be the only aircraft with the range to get to the UK from Poland/ East Germany and they would have had to fly past/through Denmark/West Germany/Netherlands first - and until Flankers came on the scene this would have to be done unescorted.
Seems very unlikely to me
What Soviet aircraft and based where were a practical threat to the Southern UK? Assuming that the west still held Germany.
If the Soviets has come west to the channel then of course that would have been a different story - but then our air defence was set up to look east - not south!
I'm sure someone can put me on the right track?
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As late as the 80s the Badgers of the Smolensk Air Army penetrating Baltap and making ASM attacks on the ADGE sites was seen as a likely threat. Backfires flying round the top could do one mission per day, through Baltap they could do too. Similarly Blinders could attack the southern North Sea.
A couple of us noted the difference in Badger assignment between the SNAF and the Air Force. IIRC the SNAF Badger tankers would probably have been used to extend the range of the ASM carriers. There were fewer tankers available to the Air Force. We assessed that their Badger ECM aircraft were fuel limited and would benefit from the tankers more than the bombers.
As you said, Fencers of the Legnicia Air Army could reach USAFE bases in East Anglia, I can't remember how far they could reach.
One NATO Intelligence assessment disagreed with the BALTAP theory and favoured a single penetration probably on the 2/4ATAF boundary. This penetration corridor could be exploited by Fitted aircraft broadening and deepening the front achieving local air superiority with Hawk sites shot out or knocked. Then the NATO rear could be interrupted and a corridor open to UK and France.
A couple of us noted the difference in Badger assignment between the SNAF and the Air Force. IIRC the SNAF Badger tankers would probably have been used to extend the range of the ASM carriers. There were fewer tankers available to the Air Force. We assessed that their Badger ECM aircraft were fuel limited and would benefit from the tankers more than the bombers.
As you said, Fencers of the Legnicia Air Army could reach USAFE bases in East Anglia, I can't remember how far they could reach.
One NATO Intelligence assessment disagreed with the BALTAP theory and favoured a single penetration probably on the 2/4ATAF boundary. This penetration corridor could be exploited by Fitted aircraft broadening and deepening the front achieving local air superiority with Hawk sites shot out or knocked. Then the NATO rear could be interrupted and a corridor open to UK and France.
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There were instances of Soviet long-range ac popping up in the southern North Sea in the 80s, in the Neatishead sector. It appeared they'd been 'studying' the oil and gas platforms.
No point in planning to hit dozens of SNS platforms
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I thought the Binbrook & Coltishall fighters were just to protect Boulmer, Staxton, Northern & Neatishead.
With the huge overhead of Midland Radar, it was not considered to be worthy of being a target.
With the huge overhead of Midland Radar, it was not considered to be worthy of being a target.
But there always seemed to be an expectation of tactical aircraft crossing the southern north sea to attack the UK. As in Priory type exercises
Fencers seemed to be the only aircraft with the range to get to the UK from Poland/ East Germany and they would have had to fly past/through Denmark/West Germany/Netherlands first - and until Flankers came on the scene this would have to be done unescorted.
Seems very unlikely to me
Fencers seemed to be the only aircraft with the range to get to the UK from Poland/ East Germany and they would have had to fly past/through Denmark/West Germany/Netherlands first - and until Flankers came on the scene this would have to be done unescorted.
Seems very unlikely to me
2. It’s possible the CAP positions for the likes of the Wattisham force won’t have been situated over Southwold or just off the Beach at Clacton.....
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Wiggy, and there was the Irish neutrality question. Maps of the UKADR omitted Ireland 😀
Thread Starter
Thanks Wiggy,
I understand that - Defence in depth.
Yes, I'd expect Wattisham to be on CAP in Dutch airspace.
I was more interested in what Soviet aircraft would have tried to get through - and where would they have been based?
Seemed like a suicide mission to me
I understand that - Defence in depth.
Yes, I'd expect Wattisham to be on CAP in Dutch airspace.
I was more interested in what Soviet aircraft would have tried to get through - and where would they have been based?
Seemed like a suicide mission to me
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As the subject still has operational relevance, I will desist from adding info from my time in War Plans and Policy at MoD.
By all means theorise, chaps, but do remember that although some border states have shifted away from the Soviets there is still a threat ... with better aircraft than in days of yore!
By all means theorise, chaps, but do remember that although some border states have shifted away from the Soviets there is still a threat ... with better aircraft than in days of yore!
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Bomber crews do not do suicide missions. For a start it rather b*gg*rs up subsequent attacks. Attrition is expected but not your own crew.
The purpose of low level attack - Fencer for instance - is to minimise the vulnerability time to Air Defences. AWACS was procured to negate that.
The purpose of ASM/ARM is again intended to minimise vulnerability. A Badger firing at maximum range was vulnerable to outer caps alone.
Again AWACS can enable better control at the edge of ADGE cover, especially if they have their heads down. So enter the AWACS killer.
it is a glorified chess game each side attacking the king and endearing to convert pawns to queens.
The purpose of low level attack - Fencer for instance - is to minimise the vulnerability time to Air Defences. AWACS was procured to negate that.
The purpose of ASM/ARM is again intended to minimise vulnerability. A Badger firing at maximum range was vulnerable to outer caps alone.
Again AWACS can enable better control at the edge of ADGE cover, especially if they have their heads down. So enter the AWACS killer.
it is a glorified chess game each side attacking the king and endearing to convert pawns to queens.
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Absolutely PN,
Just like the first RAF daylight bomber raids were massacres - next move night bombing.
I just can't the Soviets having tried it - until Germany/Denmark have been overwhelmed.
MPN11 - I think the situation now has no relevance without soviet aircraft based in East Germany/Poland
Just like the first RAF daylight bomber raids were massacres - next move night bombing.
I just can't the Soviets having tried it - until Germany/Denmark have been overwhelmed.
MPN11 - I think the situation now has no relevance without soviet aircraft based in East Germany/Poland
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The primary aim of UK Air Defence during the 50s/60s was protection of the nuclear deterrent which was mostly in southern UK. With the bases already down there, they just stayed after the RN took over the formal deterrent in '69.
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Many of the original London air defence airfields with front line fighters like Biggin Hill, West Malling, Odiham and Tangmere either closed or changed function in the late 1950's or early 1960's. I think this was foreseen in the !957 Sandys cuts. So there was a general drift away from the south and towards the north from that point.
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Fair comment. But at the risk of diverting the thread, a quick invasion of Ukraine/Poland could shift the centre of gravity quite quickly! Nothing in this game is ever static.
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The Bloodhound 2 replaced the Mk 1s and continued to protect the bomber bases, including Cyprus, long after the RN provided the principal deterrent.
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Did the red team ever penetrate UK territorial airspace, ie within 12nm of the coastline?
If so, did it appear to be deliberate or was it a nav cockup or a misjudgement of turning radius etc?
If so, did it appear to be deliberate or was it a nav cockup or a misjudgement of turning radius etc?
