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ASW and 1982 South Atlantic War

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ASW and 1982 South Atlantic War

Old 26th Mar 2019, 08:22
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Marcantilan,

Yes please, though your chapter on RAF involvement will be VERY short !!!!!!!
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 09:54
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I have probably misunderstood the previous post, but wouldn’t it have been better to accept the offer of the Westinghouse radar specs rather than query the reps ethical behaviour?
Originally Posted by orca
Yes. I’m not sure who the quote is attributed to, but to have not taken up the offer immediately would seem extraordinary. I’m assuming it was taken up.
Then again - in what was an amazing feat of arms with great acts of ingenuity and heroism - there are a few other notable examples of ‘peacetime’ thinking and naivety.
It always struck me as counter intuitive, how can you expect to make sales of your products to Countries that now know you will pass on details of the system to your potential agressors.

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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:23
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Originally Posted by Marcantilan
I have started writing about UK ASW during the 1982 South Atlantic War. An honest question, would you like to read a book about that?
yes. i'd also be very interested to read about the MMR flights, the ELINT/SIGINT flights, and more on the logistics of the whole thing.

my copy is also ordered.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:53
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Hi Nutloose,

You raise a good point. Forgive me for answering with a question.
How many weapons and systems are sold to a single customer? The point being that the U.K. could have bought a Westinghouse system if it wanted to.
Slightly more devious question. How many weapons and systems are sold where the customer has a 100% guarantee (and a way of assuring themselves that it’s true) that it’s not a watered down spec, or that the supplier (whether industry or state) may make details of the system available to others - either in a wartime assistance sense or as a precursor to further sales? Or that something critical wouldn’t be withheld (support, spares, crypto etc) in certain circumstances? Whether or not such dastardly practices are widespread it would be an optimistic customer who assumed that they weren’t.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 13:53
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True, the only way to prevent that is to be at the top of the pile and producing home products, you then control the game. Sadly we had sold ourselves out many moons ago to the Americans, and sadly now are prostituted to their whims to the detriment of our home grown industries..
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 19:14
  #106 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
It always struck me as counter intuitive, how can you expect to make sales of your products to Countries that now know you will pass on details of the system to your potential agressors.
Nutty, the number of suppliers is limited and when you buy you assume your supplier is 'friendly ' but later they may become 'enemy'.

During Confrontation Indonesia had British search radars and Russian SAM. The search radar was supposedly effective to 35,000ft and their fighter control was limited to 30,000ft. How true this was I don't know but it was what Decca, I think, told us.
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Old 27th Mar 2019, 02:05
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Originally Posted by Flypro
Marcantilan,

Yes please, though your chapter on RAF involvement will be VERY short !!!!!!!
Well, the RAF deployed some Nimrod Squadrons to ASI (firstly, Nimrod MR1 from 42 Sqn and then MR2s from 120, 201 and 206). The submarine threat was considered (according to Air Marshal Sir John Curtiss) as "small but significant", so the Nimrod patrolled inside the 400 nm from ASI. Sometimes, they deployed down south, but mainly on ASuW duties.

From April 20, the planes departed with 3xMk46 torpedoes and 4x1000lb bombs. Three days later, ten brand new Stingray torpedoes arrived, and five Nimrod were wired to launch it.

Probably the more significant Nimrod ASW action was on April 18, helping to classify as NOSUB a contact first reported from RFA Olmeda and then investigated by HMS Alacrity, HMS Broadsword and three ASW helicopters.

And this is just the start: more on the way about April 1 chase on a Victor III, Stingray torpedoes being trialled and other things related to RAF ASW.

There is a lot of RAF ASW activity to be told!

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Old 27th Mar 2019, 17:25
  #108 (permalink)  
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From illustrator´s FB page.
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 01:31
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Nimrod MR2 was also equipped to carry Sidewinder for Op CORPORATE. I was OC Armament at the base that did the necessary mods on Phantom LAU-7A launchers in double quick time over the Easter Bank Holiday long weekend 8-11 April 1982.

A Nimrod was flown in to enable a trial fit on underwing pylons.

I seem to remember carriage of BL755 and Harpoon being considered as well but that was outside my bailiwick at the time.

Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 28th Mar 2019 at 17:47.
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 07:19
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Slightly more devious question. How many weapons and systems are sold where the customer has a 100% guarantee (and a way of assuring themselves that it’s true) that it’s not a watered down spec, or that the supplier (whether industry or state) may make details of the system available to others - either in a wartime assistance sense or as a precursor to further sales? Or that something critical wouldn’t be withheld (support, spares, crypto etc) in certain circumstances? Whether or not such dastardly practices are widespread it would be an optimistic customer who assumed that they weren’t.
Prime example - Blue Fox radar (Sea Harrier FRS1), as sold to India. We didn't allow them the mid-life upgrade, which was essentially a technology demonstrator for Blue Vixen (FRS2/FA2) and EFA ECR90. The fact that some kit was handed over to India accidentally by the sailing Navy is a different matter. They didn't know what it was and returned it.

Westinghouse - RN and RAF were within days of having to ground the SAR fleets in 1989, as Westinghouse pulled the plug on support at the last minute, having accepted a contract 18 months before. Luckily, the Design Authority (MEL) sales manager found supplies in a back street shop in Lagos. Inserted in little black book, and never engaged again while I managed fire control and surveillance radars. A very rare occurrence I might add.
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 17:03
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Originally Posted by RAFEngO74to09
Nimrod MR1 was also equipped to carry Sidewinder for Op CORPORATE. I was OC Armament at the base that did the necessary mods on Phantom LAU-7A launchers in double quick time over the Easter Bank Holiday long weekend 8-11 April 1982.

A Nimrod was flown in to enable a trial fit on underwing pylons.

I seem to remember carriage of BL755 and Harpoon being considered as well but that was outside my bailiwick at the time.
Only the MK2 had sidewinder. The Mk1 departed ASI before the long flights took place. The bomb / torp mixture was to counter the low possibility of a sub but the higher possibility of a clandestine assault on ASI.
Sidewinder was both defensive and offensive if we came upon the 707 reece aircraft.
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 17:49
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Originally Posted by Marcantilan
From illustrator´s FB page.
ohh, excited about the artwork. Especially like to see coverage of the less talked about types, like the Neptune, 707- and even the Bear!

Last edited by sandiego89; 28th Mar 2019 at 17:50. Reason: spelling
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 17:50
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Corrected my post to Nimrod MR2 - it was a long time ago !
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 18:00
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Article about the Argentinian B707 ELINT aircraft here:
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-...the-falklands/
Can you imagine the headlines that would have been in "The Sun" if the Nimrod had got an air-to-air kill on the B707 ? Another distasteful "GOTCHYA !" no doubt.
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 18:06
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Which no doubt resonated with anyone in the TEZ. In Woodward’s book doesn’t he say something like ‘Gotcha’ reflected his feelings but he would have suffixed it with ‘You Bleeder’?!
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Old 22nd May 2019, 21:18
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Well, future project about UK ASW during Op Corporate is progressing very well.

The RAF chapter is not so small after all. For example, I do not know Nimrod long range sorties included sonobuoy fields on areas of suspected Argentine submarines snorting (thanks Nimrod Boys for that info!). The submarine vs submarine chapter is also there, and so on.

If someone have pictures of the time down south and willing to share (ships, planes, helos or other ASW related themes), please let me know. Full credits will be given, of course.

Best regards!
Mariano
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Old 23rd May 2019, 17:08
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Originally Posted by RAFEngO74to09
Article about the Argentinian B707 ELINT aircraft here:
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-...the-falklands/
Can you imagine the headlines that would have been in "The Sun" if the Nimrod had got an air-to-air kill on the B707 ? Another distasteful "GOTCHYA !" no doubt.
Imagine the smugness in the Kipper fleet if the RAF's first jet-on- jet kill had gone to a NImrod......
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:08
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Originally Posted by Davef68
Imagine the smugness in the Kipper fleet if the RAF's first jet-on- jet kill had gone to a NImrod......
Smug or not, it would have been preferable to the actuality.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/55364
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Old 24th May 2019, 10:32
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RAF Jet Kills

Originally Posted by Roadster280
Smug or not, it would have been preferable to the actuality.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/55364
At the (very considerable) risk of thread drift, I think the RAF’s first jet kill, a Me-262 was on 28 November 1944 at Helmond in the Netherlands, with a Bofors gun. One of many shot down by the RAF Regiment. I think the Hawker Tempest was quite successful too.

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Old 24th May 2019, 12:16
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,,and of course the first British built jet on jet kill was by Syrian Meteors on a P.R. Canberra during the 1956 Suez conflict.
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