ASW and 1982 South Atlantic War
Subs or Whales - The Ultimate Question!!
I was one of the brave souls heading south from Ascension with Harriers, Chinooks, and other stuff that we had carefully placed on ATLANTIC CONVEYOR. Because of limited accommodation on ATLANTIC CONVEYOR, several (most) of us went South on NORLAND in convoy with a bunch of others. We did a classic "War At Sea" WWII convoy zig/zag at what seemed to me to be a fairly slow speed - about 15 KTS. It became clear why we were steaming at such a slow speed, when one of our few Grey Funnel escort ships - presumably using SONAR technology from WWII - declared a submarine threat. The convoy immediately turned to place the threat in its "six o'clock" and went "Full Steam Ahead" or whatever the terminology was in the early 80's. I then realised why the convoy speed was only 15 KTS - because at max welly, NORLAND could only make 15.5KTS. So we were at the back of the convoy as it bravely ran away from the "Submarine" threat.
Probably not the best place to be if there really was a submarine loaded with torpedos in the area!!
I think the threat was finally decided to be a Whale, which probably could not swim at 15.5 KTS, so it carried on with whatever Whales do once our unwelcome presence had gone!!
Probably not the best place to be if there really was a submarine loaded with torpedos in the area!!
I think the threat was finally decided to be a Whale, which probably could not swim at 15.5 KTS, so it carried on with whatever Whales do once our unwelcome presence had gone!!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Bomber H, Blue whales can go rather faster than that although Sperm Whales are slower. A convoy has a torpedo danger zone usually in the ahead sector where the threat is a conventional submarine. A turn as you describe will ensure the submarine is no longer in the TDZ.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ah, but the wonderful thing about ASW is you can be wrong and a crafty enemy gets you to turn the wrong way 
The best place to be is in the air.
The best place to be is in the air.
BomberH,
I had a quick firkle around to try and find a clear and concise description of the construction of the Limiting Lines of Submerged Approach. I failed miserably, lots of descriptions but none clear and concise. This was the best I could find:
https://www.history.navy.mil/researc...submarine.html
If you think of it as an exercise in geometry and relative motion, not dissimilar to air defence intercept geometry, but carried out in slow motion.
YS
I had a quick firkle around to try and find a clear and concise description of the construction of the Limiting Lines of Submerged Approach. I failed miserably, lots of descriptions but none clear and concise. This was the best I could find:
https://www.history.navy.mil/researc...submarine.html
If you think of it as an exercise in geometry and relative motion, not dissimilar to air defence intercept geometry, but carried out in slow motion.
YS
BomberH,
I had a quick firkle around to try and find a clear and concise description of the construction of the “Limiting Lines of Submerged Approach”. I failed miserably, lots of descriptions but none clear and concise. This was the best I could find:
https://www.history.navy.mil/researc...submarine.html
If you think of it as an exercise in geometry and relative motion, not dissimilar to air defence intercept geometry, but carried out in slow motion.
YS
I had a quick firkle around to try and find a clear and concise description of the construction of the “Limiting Lines of Submerged Approach”. I failed miserably, lots of descriptions but none clear and concise. This was the best I could find:
https://www.history.navy.mil/researc...submarine.html
If you think of it as an exercise in geometry and relative motion, not dissimilar to air defence intercept geometry, but carried out in slow motion.
YS
Last edited by AndySmith; 26th Aug 2018 at 11:03. Reason: for editing
You can still construct a Limiting Lines diagram for a submarine with performance characteristics of a SSN but quite clearly the Limiting Lines becomes threat lines outside of which the submarine would be unable to gain position to launch an attack. You may wish to consider the situation with a high speed surface unit; submarine has only a small or low speed advantage; and a weapon similar to the Mk8 torpedo. Manoeuvring after detection, based upon Limiting Lines could still negate the attackers firing solution.
The problem facing the Argentinians wasnt just one of relative speed but an almost complete lack of acoustic information about potential attackers. No source level information, no signature information, not even any discrete lines. You get something print out on the AQA5 in a Tracker, how are they going to determine whether or not it might be a target related line?
ASW may be an art and does sometimes benefit from apparent luck. But its usually because one party knows the techniques and procedures very thoroughly and knows how to apply them and maybe the other party makes an error. RN warfare officers learnt the former on the Maritime Operations Course and later in their career would hone their decision making on the a Maritime Tactical Course. Maybe they still do.
YS
Its not a theory, it is a mathematical technique used to produce a solution to a problem. Its in exactly the same category as the procedures used to calculate a Critical Point or a Point of No Return or a Time Late at Datum calculation. You put the numbers in you get an answer, use different numbers you get a different answer. The information provided was in response to a post regarding a specific event. The threat was a conventional submarine not a nuclear powered boat.
You can still construct a Limiting Lines diagram for a submarine with performance characteristics of a SSN but quite clearly the Limiting Lines becomes threat lines outside of which the submarine would be unable to gain position to launch an attack. You may wish to consider the situation with a high speed surface unit; submarine has only a small or low speed advantage; and a weapon similar to the Mk8 torpedo. Manoeuvring after detection, based upon Limiting Lines could still negate the attackers firing solution.
The problem facing the Argentinians wasnt just one of relative speed but an almost complete lack of acoustic information about potential attackers. No source level information, no signature information, not even any discrete lines. You get something print out on the AQA5 in a Tracker, how are they going to determine whether or not it might be a target related line?
ASW may be an art and does sometimes benefit from apparent luck. But its usually because one party knows the techniques and procedures very thoroughly and knows how to apply them and maybe the other party makes an error. RN warfare officers learnt the former on the Maritime Operations Course and later in their career would hone their decision making on the a Maritime Tactical Course. Maybe they still do.
YS
In the same way BomberH was bemoaning the fact that the Norland was chugging along at 15.5 knots, the ARA 25 de Mayo task group had a maximum speed of 20 knots, and some of their older escorts were thought to be incapable of maintaining high speeds for any long period of time. They had to adapt their ASW tactics to counter, as you quite rightly point out, an new and unknown threat.
Regards
A
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I guess the turn away tactic will be a best option against a nuclear threat too. You cut the nuclear speed advantage requiring an increase in speed, increased self-noise, and reduced sonar performance. Unless the target has the equipment to exploit this then it is just postponing the inevitable.
Thread Starter
Either crap propagandists or deliberate disinformation or security stopping an operational aircraft photo?
We have any of that nonsense too. Used to be paranoid about publishing airframe numbers when it was publicly available and every airfield had its duty spotter. Nothing moves, at least in daylight, without being logged, privacy photographed and collated in some magazine etc.
We have any of that nonsense too. Used to be paranoid about publishing airframe numbers when it was publicly available and every airfield had its duty spotter. Nothing moves, at least in daylight, without being logged, privacy photographed and collated in some magazine etc.
Here it is!
(I think the Sabre hit the SS Lady Elizabeth...)
Thread Starter
On May 23, 1982 a number of explosions were heard near HMS Valiant, getting progresively closer. The 5th (and last) one being loud enough to shake the submarine and its crew considerably. HMS Valiant suffered minor damage. The "attacker" were a flight of Skyhawk returning to San Julian air base, jettisoning its ordenance in the middle of nowhere. But HMS Valiant was in the middle of nowhere at the time. According to its CO, Tom Le Marchand: "We were lucky, but a few feet closer and it might have been something of a bad luck story."
The Argentine Air Force was very close to the first kill ever of an SSN...by pure chance.
Valiant was there at the time:
Regards to all!
The Argentine Air Force was very close to the first kill ever of an SSN...by pure chance.
Valiant was there at the time:
Regards to all!
Thread Starter
The final cover. The book will be in the streets (hopefully) late next week.
AndySmith worked hard as a translator and, also, he gave a huge help throughout this project. This book would not exist without him!
Regards!
Last edited by Marcantilan; 13th Feb 2019 at 18:29.
Is your book likely to feature on Kindle soon Mariano?
The information now coming out after all these years is fascinating.
Remember the war well - as a 15 year old lad at the time.
The information now coming out after all these years is fascinating.
Remember the war well - as a 15 year old lad at the time.
Thread Starter
Hello tartare,
The contract Iīve signed mentions the book will be published electronically in the future. But I donīt know when.
But the book is in A4 format, with plenty of photos (more than 80), maps (seven) and profiles (12: nine aircraft and three submarines). I think paper suits best this type of book (and I am speaking as a big fan of Kindle...)
Best regards!
Mariano
The contract Iīve signed mentions the book will be published electronically in the future. But I donīt know when.
But the book is in A4 format, with plenty of photos (more than 80), maps (seven) and profiles (12: nine aircraft and three submarines). I think paper suits best this type of book (and I am speaking as a big fan of Kindle...)
Best regards!
Mariano
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The final cover. The book will be in the streets (hopefully) late next week.
AndySmith worked hard as a translator and, also, he gave a huge help throughout this project. This book would not exist without him!
Regards!
Any chance I could get a signed copy for my Uncle, who was an aircraft inspector in Westland Helicopters?
Thank you.
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1982 Falklands.. All I remember was the Chef's Special Salad in the Volcano Club, Temazepam jellies and getting a free pair of desert wellies from Clarks. What did or didn't happen is still a mystery. Chilean burnt out Sea Kings anybody? I know a certain SSN made best speed after we pinged her with a Cambs buoy on the way home ;P
1982 Falklands.. All I remember was the Chef's Special Salad in the Volcano Club, Temazepam jellies and getting a free pair of desert wellies from Clarks. What did or didn't happen is still a mystery. Chilean burnt out Sea Kings anybody? I know a certain SSN made best speed after we pinged her with a Cambs buoy on the way home ;P
YS
