ASW and 1982 South Atlantic War
with regards to the mystery submarine - i've not read the book or know about the incident - but theres a bit in several of the diplomatic/political sources around the UN at the time in which the Russian Ambassador to the UN asks the UK ambassador to the UN 'i hope our submarines are being useful...'.
possible blue on grey, or is it blue on blue..?
possible blue on grey, or is it blue on blue..?
There is also the Invincible incident. One day in May, without going and looking in the log I can't be specific right now, there was a torpedo alert on board Invincible. The ship went to action stations and carried out some violent high speed turns that everyone on board at the time remember well, and say was the scariest moment of the whole conflict. It's mentioned in the commander's, JJ Black's, book. I am not sure if I can copy the text here or not without getting a ban - so I won't. I know two members of the Flight Deck crew that are sure that they saw torpedo tracks in the sea, and similarly the sonar team, I think on Brilliant, were convinced that they had heard a torpedo in the water. On the date in question, the only operational Argentine sub was nowhere near the area (as I have discussed with Mariano elsewhere). This is another yet to be solved incident. Did it happen? Was it a false contact?.....
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There is also the Invincible incident. One day in May, without going and looking in the log I can't be specific right now, there was a torpedo alert on board Invincible. The ship went to action stations and carried out some violent high speed turns that everyone on board at the time remember well, and say was the scariest moment of the whole conflict. It's mentioned in the commander's, JJ Black's, book. I am not sure if I can copy the text here or not without getting a ban - so I won't. I know two members of the Flight Deck crew that are sure that they saw torpedo tracks in the sea, and similarly the sonar team, I think on Brilliant, were convinced that they had heard a torpedo in the water. On the date in question, the only operational Argentine sub was nowhere near the area (as I have discussed with Mariano elsewhere). This is another yet to be solved incident. Did it happen? Was it a false contact?.....
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with regards to the mystery submarine - i've not read the book or know about the incident - but theres a bit in several of the diplomatic/political sources around the UN at the time in which the Russian Ambassador to the UN asks the UK ambassador to the UN 'i hope our submarines are being useful...'.
possible blue on grey, or is it blue on blue..?
possible blue on grey, or is it blue on blue..?
YS
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will do, thanks. It does make you think what happened but wasn’t reported outside of MoD. I didn’t think Russian subs were that quiet in the 80’s.
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Having read the report that YS posted there are still lots of things that will probably never enter the public domain.
Most of the speakers at the RAF historical group are senior. I just wondered, whilst I have a little grey matter left if I should write down some of the things I was involved in as a very junior member of the team. I never had the complete picture, rightly so. As the years have progressed I try to put into context some of the stuff I did back then. I wish I had kept a diary. I know most of the design drawings and files from the time were destroyed.
Most of the speakers at the RAF historical group are senior. I just wondered, whilst I have a little grey matter left if I should write down some of the things I was involved in as a very junior member of the team. I never had the complete picture, rightly so. As the years have progressed I try to put into context some of the stuff I did back then. I wish I had kept a diary. I know most of the design drawings and files from the time were destroyed.
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The Argentine Navy informed the US Naval attache, early on April 2nd, 1982, "one or more" Soviet submarine were near the islands. The US attache briefed BRITNAVAT Buenos Aires about the subs, and he sent the message to MODUK Navy via Flash Message.
So, from the very beginning, the Soviet subs were part of the equation.
In fact, the war was triggered by a Soviet boat. Mr Victor was detected and HMS Superb was deployed, from Gibraltar to chase the contact (I´ve the pic of the same Mr Victor, taken from a Nimrod). The press reported Superb was heading south, to the crisis in South Georgia and the Argentine government said now or never (a nuclear sub was a no go for the assault).
From there, many suspicious submarine contacts were reported. The book cover many of the mistery contacts and, specially, the May 5th, 1982 attack by a Tracker and Sea King of a submerged contact, far away from HMS Splendid, the closest UK boat. They dropped two Mk.44 SW torpedoes against a solid contact, detected by sonobuoys, MAD and Sea King passive sonar. Almost, almost the same story told by Adm Parry, which happened a couple of days later.
However, the mistery remains. I could say (quoting myself from Ewen Southby Tailyour´s "Exocet Falklands") a friend of mine was on ISA meeting Odessa 2004 and some Russians told him they were there (below water) waiting for "the order" from Moscow. And a Russian amateur historian informed me K-525 (an Oscar class boat) was down south in 1982. True or false, who knows. Some info I have support that claim, but the Soviet files of the time are still closed (and yes, I´ve asked via official channels).
Regards!
So, from the very beginning, the Soviet subs were part of the equation.
In fact, the war was triggered by a Soviet boat. Mr Victor was detected and HMS Superb was deployed, from Gibraltar to chase the contact (I´ve the pic of the same Mr Victor, taken from a Nimrod). The press reported Superb was heading south, to the crisis in South Georgia and the Argentine government said now or never (a nuclear sub was a no go for the assault).
From there, many suspicious submarine contacts were reported. The book cover many of the mistery contacts and, specially, the May 5th, 1982 attack by a Tracker and Sea King of a submerged contact, far away from HMS Splendid, the closest UK boat. They dropped two Mk.44 SW torpedoes against a solid contact, detected by sonobuoys, MAD and Sea King passive sonar. Almost, almost the same story told by Adm Parry, which happened a couple of days later.
However, the mistery remains. I could say (quoting myself from Ewen Southby Tailyour´s "Exocet Falklands") a friend of mine was on ISA meeting Odessa 2004 and some Russians told him they were there (below water) waiting for "the order" from Moscow. And a Russian amateur historian informed me K-525 (an Oscar class boat) was down south in 1982. True or false, who knows. Some info I have support that claim, but the Soviet files of the time are still closed (and yes, I´ve asked via official channels).
Regards!
Having read the report that YS posted there are still lots of things that will probably never enter the public domain.
Most of the speakers at the RAF historical group are senior. I just wondered, whilst I have a little grey matter left if I should write down some of the things I was involved in as a very junior member of the team. I never had the complete picture, rightly so. As the years have progressed I try to put into context some of the stuff I did back then. I wish I had kept a diary. I know most of the design drawings and files from the time were destroyed.
Most of the speakers at the RAF historical group are senior. I just wondered, whilst I have a little grey matter left if I should write down some of the things I was involved in as a very junior member of the team. I never had the complete picture, rightly so. As the years have progressed I try to put into context some of the stuff I did back then. I wish I had kept a diary. I know most of the design drawings and files from the time were destroyed.
I think that Marcantilan has corresponded with the PhD student writing his thesis on the air war, and it’s true that more books and articles will start appearing- if the stuff dealing with Chile is declassified after 40 years (rather than being closed for longer upon review), I imagine some more material will come out. I’m looking forward to reading Marcantilan’s book when it comes out.
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I think that Marcantilan has corresponded with the PhD student writing his thesis on the air war, and it’s true that more books and articles will start appearing- if the stuff dealing with Chile is declassified after 40 years (rather than being closed for longer upon review), I imagine some more material will come out. I’m looking forward to reading Marcantilan’s book when it comes out.
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Of course - one has to accept that a Russian might have had a good reason for wanting the UK or its allies to think that they were somewhere near the TEZ when in fact they weren’t...feigned global reach etc. Equally a remark made in a foreign language might have been meant in a different way to the one taken - for example a decrease in submarine op tempo in the North Atlantic might have freed up NATO (in this case UK) assets to go south.
In the Falklands Edition of Flight Deck the 820 NAS entry seems to suggest they attacked a whale ‘successfully’.
Sadly any events pieced together from memories will be inaccurate. Lord knows we’ve all spent enough time in peacetime de-briefs trying to make sense of what we thought we saw!
In the Falklands Edition of Flight Deck the 820 NAS entry seems to suggest they attacked a whale ‘successfully’.
Sadly any events pieced together from memories will be inaccurate. Lord knows we’ve all spent enough time in peacetime de-briefs trying to make sense of what we thought we saw!
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No, the 820 NAS entry (unlike the others which are serious) is written very well in the style of a film review. The ‘critic’ noted that in amongst the main war storyline there is a love story with a tragic twist - involving a whale and a torpedo - and a case of mistaken identity leads to a ‘bloody climax’.
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No, the 820 NAS entry (unlike the others which are serious) is written very well in the style of a film review. The ‘critic’ noted that in amongst the main war storyline there is a love story with a tragic twist - involving a whale and a torpedo - and a case of mistaken identity leads to a ‘bloody climax’.
According to my records, 820 NAS launched 6 x Mk46 torpedoes and 18x Mk11 depth charges.
The main suspect for your whale kill is a torpedo released on April 24 (Observer Lt Smith), a GASS attack on Possub HI 3, identified later as a whale ("Cert whale"). Not sure if the torpedo hit the target, or the whale made evasive maneuvers.
Regards,
It is well worth reading Hennessy and Jinks’ “The Silent Deep” as it puts Corporate into context with Cold War operations. Whilst it is probably incomplete in some respects it does contain an unusually large amount of detail about post war RN submarine operations. Whilst I cannot claim to have extensive knowledge of the subject, I can say that there is information in the book that was TS when I last saw it.
No doubt there are gaps in their account, but I believe it is the best record so far of sub surface operations during Corporate,
YS
No doubt there are gaps in their account, but I believe it is the best record so far of sub surface operations during Corporate,
YS
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It is well worth reading Hennessy and Jinks’ “The Silent Deep” as it puts Corporate into context with Cold War operations. Whilst it is probably incomplete in some respects it does contain an unusually large amount of detail about post war RN submarine operations. Whilst I cannot claim to have extensive knowledge of the subject, I can say that there is information in the book that was TS when I last saw it.
No doubt there are gaps in their account, but I believe it is the best record so far of sub surface operations during Corporate,
YS
No doubt there are gaps in their account, but I believe it is the best record so far of sub surface operations during Corporate,
YS
However...for a reason I can not explain further...a book written by me was mentioned only in the second edition (the paperback one) of the FI chapter. Not a big deal, but I was upset for some time about it.
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I can now! It was once UK Secret Eyes Bravo, now is in the NA. No Argentine submarine was even near this area at the time.
Again, on May 5th, 1982 a Tracker antisubmarine plane from the Argentine light carrier ARA 25 de Mayo was ordered to search an area near the mainland, looking for the patrol boat ARA Alferez Sobral, which was attacked earlier by British helicopters.
The Tracker (CO Lt. Carlos Cal) soon detected, by radar and latter visual, a small periscope or snorkel over the surface. Lt. Cal dropped then an Mk 44 and a sonobuoy. However, he could not track the torpedo run: the plane, because was configured for surface search, had not a sonobuoy receptor.
Alerted by the attack, another Tracker and two Sea Kings from the carrier were ordered to take off and rush to search and destroy the intruder. Arrived at the area, the new Tracker (CO Lt. Fortini) and one of the Sea King (the other had sonar problems) located and tracked (passively) a subsurface contact.
It is worth to mention the Tracker acustic operator had contact on three JEZEBEL (LOFAR) sonobuoys, and confirmed the source by nine MAD contacts. In addition, the Sea King helicopter heard the contact by its dipping sonar. After the helicopter confirmed the target, it guided the Tracker for a VECTAC, and then Lt. Fortini dropped a new Mk 44 over it. He saw the torpedo entering the water and he heard the torpedo duplicating its ping and it speeding (a sign of the torpedo acquiring a submerged target).
But none happened then. Contact was classified as a PROBSUB Confidence 1 in the scene and degraded to POSSUB Confidence 2/3 in the after action analysis, to the dismay of the Tracker / Sea King crewmembers.
Two actions. The same intruder?
Regards!
Shortly after this, our D came up with a song, to the tune of the Welsh National Anthem;
Whales, whales,
820 sinks effin whales!
When there's no submarine
To be seen at the scene,
820 sinks effin whales!
Much merriment!
mog
Whales, whales,
820 sinks effin whales!
When there's no submarine
To be seen at the scene,
820 sinks effin whales!
Much merriment!
mog
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From the RAF Historical Society ... https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documen...s-Campaign.pdf ... page 119 of an interesting read.
Or not, perhaps?
So from about 2006 the only fixed-wing aircraft which will be capable of embarking in the Invincible class carriers will be the GR7s and we will maintain that capability until the Joint Strike Fighter enters service with the two new big carriers in around 2012.
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In the Falklands Edition of Flight Deck the 820 NAS entry seems to suggest they attacked a whale ‘successfully’.