Phenom
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Good post LJ.
Lima Juliet wrote:
Indeed. But will it ever improve? Despite Anglesey Bob's protestations, I very much doubt it.
When the whole farce of MFTS falls over, as it surely will, how many of us old farts who predicted this nonsense will say "We told you so...."
The whole MFTS thing has been a ‘train crash’ slowly evolving in front of our eyes.
When the whole farce of MFTS falls over, as it surely will, how many of us old farts who predicted this nonsense will say "We told you so...."
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It is rather tragic to think that only a short time ago the RAF could provide its own training in-House, using QFIs that had recent frontline experience (although there were a few that had skulked around Lincolnshire seemingly for ever!) A QFI tour was a ‘rest’ from the frontline & continuous deployments & afterwards you returned able to take on instructional duties on the OCUs.
Now the training system has ground to an almost total halt, the often unsuitable aircraft provided in tiny numbers unable to cope with any surge in aircrew numbers. Students in the system are facing years of holds, even prior to EFT, so are VWing as a result. Meanwhile outflow is accelerating as the airlines up their recruitment & the effects of restrictions on flying pay (sorry, retention pay), pensions & below inflation pay rises come home to roost.
Almost a ‘perfect storm’ in aircrew numbers is in prospect and the RAF has seemingly lost the ability to do anything training-wise to solve it.
Now the training system has ground to an almost total halt, the often unsuitable aircraft provided in tiny numbers unable to cope with any surge in aircrew numbers. Students in the system are facing years of holds, even prior to EFT, so are VWing as a result. Meanwhile outflow is accelerating as the airlines up their recruitment & the effects of restrictions on flying pay (sorry, retention pay), pensions & below inflation pay rises come home to roost.
Almost a ‘perfect storm’ in aircrew numbers is in prospect and the RAF has seemingly lost the ability to do anything training-wise to solve it.
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Personally I think the DA42 with Garmin 1000 is a better aircraft for ME training than the Phenom.
https://www.vikingair.com/twin-otter...SAAEgI0IfD_BwE
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Twotter very nice and ten times more interesting to learn on. Yet it is 30% more expensive (or thereabouts) and I would have thought a lot more expensive than that in life costs.
BEagle and LJ
Firstly let me say that the part of MFTS that I have experience of is working fine. A decent sized fleet of new jets with a huge new building, decent sims and new engineering facilities is not a terrible place to work.
Secondly I should add that I am not qualified to comment on any of the other areas of MFTS so my optimism may well be misplaced.
My final point which I keep trying to make, poorly it seems, is that I personally will take no joy in seeing MFTS fail if it comes to that, I don’t think anyone should. It is the only training system we have right now and the hopes of hundreds of aspiring pilots and the future of the Air Force rests on it. Not to mention that a lot of my tax pounds have been spent on it and if it fails we won’t get them back.
BEagle it is not just you old farts who can see the problems. Us young(er) folk can see them too. It’s just that, for those of us that work in the system, I feel there is no point complaining or pointing out the faults when it won’t change anything. It just makes people go to work feeling miserable.
So, in summary, excluding the FJ aspects which I do know about you are almost certainly right about the other bits but I for one will not sit and rub my hands with glee at the prospect of its impending failure.
BV
Secondly I should add that I am not qualified to comment on any of the other areas of MFTS so my optimism may well be misplaced.
My final point which I keep trying to make, poorly it seems, is that I personally will take no joy in seeing MFTS fail if it comes to that, I don’t think anyone should. It is the only training system we have right now and the hopes of hundreds of aspiring pilots and the future of the Air Force rests on it. Not to mention that a lot of my tax pounds have been spent on it and if it fails we won’t get them back.
BEagle it is not just you old farts who can see the problems. Us young(er) folk can see them too. It’s just that, for those of us that work in the system, I feel there is no point complaining or pointing out the faults when it won’t change anything. It just makes people go to work feeling miserable.
So, in summary, excluding the FJ aspects which I do know about you are almost certainly right about the other bits but I for one will not sit and rub my hands with glee at the prospect of its impending failure.
BV
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https://www.vikingair.com/twin-otter...costs#Per-Hour
and a lot more versatile.
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Personally I think the DA42 with Garmin 1000 is a better aircraft for ME training than the Phenom
Very very reliable engine the PT6 too.
This thread is in danger of getting a bit like a Volvo driver trying to convince a VW driver which car is best now!
Maybe Ascent/Affinity just got bored of all the opinions thrown at them and drew a name out of a hat.
Next up let’s all try to agree on the best fighter aircraft ever built.
BV
Maybe Ascent/Affinity just got bored of all the opinions thrown at them and drew a name out of a hat.
Next up let’s all try to agree on the best fighter aircraft ever built.
BV
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Firstly let me say that the part of MFTS that I have experience of is working fine. A decent sized fleet of new jets with a huge new building, decent sims and new engineering facilities is not a terrible place to work.
Nutty
Jam today versus jam tomorrow.
We needed new training aircraft across the spectrum. I have no idea how much Phenoms, Prefects, Junos and Texans cost but I have a fair idea how much Hawks cost.
If we’d managed to afford new aircraft I would bet good money we would have been operating out of manky old buildings in perpetuity.
No government wants to stump up billions in one go. Spreading the cost (even if it turns out to be far more expensive in the long run) is how governments work.
You know all of this as well as I do.
BV
We needed new training aircraft across the spectrum. I have no idea how much Phenoms, Prefects, Junos and Texans cost but I have a fair idea how much Hawks cost.
If we’d managed to afford new aircraft I would bet good money we would have been operating out of manky old buildings in perpetuity.
No government wants to stump up billions in one go. Spreading the cost (even if it turns out to be far more expensive in the long run) is how governments work.
You know all of this as well as I do.
BV
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I agree Bob, but the company involved with the Phenom is probably leasing them, or if purchased has factored in those costs.
Originally Posted by Bob Viking
No government wants to stump up billions in one go. Spreading the cost (even if it turns out to be far more expensive in the long run) is how governments work.
You know all of this as well as I do.
You know all of this as well as I do.
Firstly let me say that the part of MFTS that I have experience of is working fine. A decent sized fleet of new jets with a huge new building, decent sims and new engineering facilities is not a terrible place to work.
Last edited by Easy Street; 28th Jul 2018 at 17:20.
BV
As ever a reasoned and balanced post. My concern on what I hear about Valley and what the spotters would seem to back up are the low numbers of actual jets that fly from the line on a day to day basis. On some spotter sites it states it is as low as 6 aircraft. Now seeing as we bought 28x Hawk T2s and less than half of that seems to be the ‘batting average’, are you really that confident on that rosie picture you are painting?
Here is the spotters log on 13 Jun which was described as an exceptionally good day recently:
Even 17 out of 28 isn’t exactly amazing I would offer?
Now with all of the Saudis, Qataris and other nations buying training courses, plus our own pilots, then QFI workups and everything else like STANEVAL going on, are we really convinced that 17x Hawks on a daily basis is going to crack it? Not forgetting that the RN are also needing FJ pilots in reasonable numbers also.
BTW - I agree that our training system is the future of the Service, so why have we allowed it to slowly decline into a training fleet The NAO grilled the MOD on this 3 years ago: https://www.nao.org.uk/report/military-flying-training/
The video is here: https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/...1-168735a1b10b
As ever a reasoned and balanced post. My concern on what I hear about Valley and what the spotters would seem to back up are the low numbers of actual jets that fly from the line on a day to day basis. On some spotter sites it states it is as low as 6 aircraft. Now seeing as we bought 28x Hawk T2s and less than half of that seems to be the ‘batting average’, are you really that confident on that rosie picture you are painting?
Here is the spotters log on 13 Jun which was described as an exceptionally good day recently:
Locals all Hawk T.2
ZK028/S, ZK013/D, ZK010/A, ZK011/B, ZK029/T, ZK026/Q, ZK024/O, ZK022/M, ZK012/C, ZK018/I, ZK020/K, ZK037/AB, ZK035/Z, ZK036/AA, ZK031/V, ZK025/P, ZK015/F
ZK028/S, ZK013/D, ZK010/A, ZK011/B, ZK029/T, ZK026/Q, ZK024/O, ZK022/M, ZK012/C, ZK018/I, ZK020/K, ZK037/AB, ZK035/Z, ZK036/AA, ZK031/V, ZK025/P, ZK015/F
Now with all of the Saudis, Qataris and other nations buying training courses, plus our own pilots, then QFI workups and everything else like STANEVAL going on, are we really convinced that 17x Hawks on a daily basis is going to crack it? Not forgetting that the RN are also needing FJ pilots in reasonable numbers also.
BTW - I agree that our training system is the future of the Service, so why have we allowed it to slowly decline into a training fleet The NAO grilled the MOD on this 3 years ago: https://www.nao.org.uk/report/military-flying-training/
The video is here: https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/...1-168735a1b10b
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As I recall on the Jetstream you could see your wingtips at least, I would imagine that would be less likely to be possible on a swept wing jet like the Phenom. Add in the throttle lag of a jet & I can’t see it as being an ideal ab-initio formation trainer.
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Ken,
When I was taught formation flying, or indeed taught others on Fast Jet OCUs one never looked at your own wintips for reference. If one could manage to formate (and AAR )in the British F4 and Tornado F3 (Bypass engines) both with a lot of throttle lag it would not be a problem in the Phenom. Having done hunderds of hours of formation in the Dominie the problem is always loosing sight, especially cross cockpit. Formation flying should be taught to ALL pilots at Basic Flying Training prior to streaming, but that is another story!
When I was taught formation flying, or indeed taught others on Fast Jet OCUs one never looked at your own wintips for reference. If one could manage to formate (and AAR )in the British F4 and Tornado F3 (Bypass engines) both with a lot of throttle lag it would not be a problem in the Phenom. Having done hunderds of hours of formation in the Dominie the problem is always loosing sight, especially cross cockpit. Formation flying should be taught to ALL pilots at Basic Flying Training prior to streaming, but that is another story!
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Ken,
When I was taught formation flying, or indeed taught others on Fast Jet OCUs one never looked at your own wintips for reference. If one could manage to formate (and AAR )in the British F4 and Tornado F3 (Bypass engines) both with a lot of throttle lag it would not be a problem in the Phenom. Having done hunderds of hours of formation in the Dominie the problem is always loosing sight, especially cross cockpit. Formation flying should be taught to ALL pilots at Basic Flying Training prior to streaming, but that is another story!
When I was taught formation flying, or indeed taught others on Fast Jet OCUs one never looked at your own wintips for reference. If one could manage to formate (and AAR )in the British F4 and Tornado F3 (Bypass engines) both with a lot of throttle lag it would not be a problem in the Phenom. Having done hunderds of hours of formation in the Dominie the problem is always loosing sight, especially cross cockpit. Formation flying should be taught to ALL pilots at Basic Flying Training prior to streaming, but that is another story!
ME aircraft which require air-to-air refuelling in the receiver role have to be flown in close formation. Fewer types are so equipped these days, of course.
Teaching night close formation to new VC10 co-pilots who hadn't had the benefit of traditional BFTS training was often quite demanding...
Teaching night close formation to new VC10 co-pilots who hadn't had the benefit of traditional BFTS training was often quite demanding...
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Equally challenging on Tornado F3. Night close formation F3/F3 was probitited until NVGs. Consequently, taking a first tourist for their first night AAR was an experience. There was also no requirement to be dual so required a Nav with a good line in chat. On one occassion it took 30 minutes (one full slot) just to get the abo into the waiting position.
I still believe that ALL military pilots should be taught, and have the basic skills in ALL facets of "Military Aviation" of which formation is one. We are not talk Reds standard but a knowledge of the fundimentals and a rudimentary skill level.
There can be no doubt that the present ME students are "short changed" in their training. Those who have graduated in recent years do a very credible job having recieved the absolute minimum throughout their Cranwell flying training!
I still believe that ALL military pilots should be taught, and have the basic skills in ALL facets of "Military Aviation" of which formation is one. We are not talk Reds standard but a knowledge of the fundimentals and a rudimentary skill level.
There can be no doubt that the present ME students are "short changed" in their training. Those who have graduated in recent years do a very credible job having recieved the absolute minimum throughout their Cranwell flying training!