Scampton And Linton-on-Ouse Closure

[ExAscoteer2]

Originally Posted by Bob Viking

I know what you’re saying about how the Reds will be very disruptive and I sympathise with any collocated operators.

I think you do the team a disservice though by saying they demand a sanitised airfield. It is the nature of their flying task that demands it.

So you agree there would be disruption. How am I doing the Team a disservice? I'm merely stating what will be required for RAFAT Ops. At Cranwell it was 2 hrs lost from the FLYPRO - didn't affect us too much on 55(R) (aside from SCT) owing to the nature of our sortie lengths, but it certainly screwed 45(R) and the CFS Bulldogs and Fireflies. That is exactly why the Reds moved back to Scampton in 2000. The experiment didn't work!

Originally Posted by Bob Viking

For them to do a 9 ship take off, display and recovery it is safety that demands a sanitised airfield, not ego.

Who said anything about ego?

Originally Posted by Bob Viking

no amount of gnashing of teeth on here will change that.

Who's 'gnashing teeth'? I was merely pointing out why it won't work - no amount of sticking heads in the sand, sticking fingers in ears and singing 'la, la, la' with change the fact that it didn't work before, so it won't work again.

[frodo_monkey]

Originally Posted by ExAscoteer2

no amount of sticking heads in the sand, sticking fingers in ears and singing 'la, la, la' with change the fact that it didn't work before, so it won't work again.

Only if you assume the Cranwell flypro of the time is the same as Waddo’s. Even Cranwell is a bit of a ghost town now with Dominies having gone, only 5 Phenom and a smaller EFT setup. Waddo has even less, and what it does have is much more predictable, flies for longer and doesn’t circuit-bash.

[Bob Viking]

Originally Posted by ExAscoteer2

Because they will demand no aircraft movements 15 mins before to 15 mins after both a Reds take off and Reds landing. Oh and they will fly 2 sorties a day.

Did I misread the tenor of your post? To me that sounded like you suggested that the team were stomping their feet and making unnecessary demands. It sounded a little like a bitter ex trucky having a dig at the zoomies. If that was not your intention then I apologise.

BV

[Wensleydale]

Originally Posted by frodo_monkey

Only if you assume the Cranwell flypro of the time is the same as Waddo’s. Even Cranwell is a bit of a ghost town now with Dominies having gone, only 5 Phenom and a smaller EFT setup. Waddo has even less, and what it does have is much more predictable, flies for longer and doesn’t circuit-bash.

Waddington's flypro is governed by tasking of ISTAR assets which are given operating times usually days before they have to be on task (for example, the Sentry is tasked by NATO AEW&C Force Command well in advance). Achieving these times means a set take-off time with the added risk of discovering that the Reds have put in a late airfield blocking time and you are 30 minutes late airborne resulting in a loss of valuable (and expensive) training time with other assets including fighter control serials and Naval surface units. Planning an excessively early take-off is also a waste of valuable (and very expensive) flying hours, to say nothing of added crew rest difficulties with a very early morning start. If I may also add that years ago during Reds bolt-hole, when the Sentry was flying live ops to the Balkans from Waddington in order to police the NFZ, a slip in Reds take-off time resulted in a very late on-task time over the UN No-fly zone!! The Reds need to deconflict from the ISTAR tasking, and not the other way round which happened back then.

[frodo_monkey]

Only an issue until Sentry gets binned...

[ExAscoteer2]

BV

Indeed you misinterpreted my words.

Apology accepted.

BTW I wasn't just a 'Truckie'.

At the time I had several friends on the Team: Andy Offer, Smiffy, Gary Waterfall, Cubes, so it wasn't about jealousy, bitterness, or the Team being 'Prima Donnas'. It was about the disruption to the FLYPRO.

Indeed the disruption was so bad that OC RAFAT was routinely donating back seat rides to those affected (and yes I had one ).

[Bob Viking]

Wensleydale

Remind us what year that was again?

BV

[ExAscoteer2]

Originally Posted by frodo_monkey

Only if you assume the Cranwell flypro of the time is the same as Waddo’s. Even Cranwell is a bit of a ghost town now with Dominies having gone, only 5 Phenom and a smaller EFT setup. Waddo has even less, and what it does have is much more predictable, flies for longer and doesn’t circuit-bash.

I would refer you to the earlier post by an ISTAR operator.

[frodo_monkey]

Originally Posted by ExAscoteer2

I would refer you to the earlier post by an ISTAR operator.

Believe me I’m no Reds apologist - clearly the two airfield users would have to work collaboratively - I just think you’re over-emphasising a problem that may well not exist.

[ExAscoteer2]

Frodo, I am merely illustrating the debacle that happened at Cranwell between 1996 - 2000.

You, obviously, weren't there at the time so you have no experience of the disruption.

[frodo_monkey]

Originally Posted by ExAscoteer2

Frodo, I am merely illustrating the debacle that happened at Cranwell between 1996 - 2000.

You, obviously, weren't there at the time so you have no experience of the disruption.

Correct, but on the other hand that was 20-24 years ago and we’re a much smaller Air Force nowadays. Just my two-penneth, it’ll be interesting to see how it pans out.

[Finningley Boy]

If they're going to use Scampton to practice over, as they did 1996-2000, what is the actual long term plan for Scampton?

FB

[typerated]

Originally Posted by Finningley Boy

If they're going to use Scampton to practice over, as they did 1996-2000, what is the actual long term plan for Scampton?

FB

I think it is to be housing - so will only be available for limited time period.
Donna Nook is an option - with a long transit.
But the RAFAT might not survive the next review? Lots of talk (again) of no Sacred Cows!

[Finningley Boy]

Originally Posted by typerated

I think it is to be housing - so will only be available for limited time period.
Donna Nook is an option - with a long transit.
But the RAFAT might not survive the next review? Lots of talk (again) of no Sacred Cows!

The way Mr Wallace is making clear the enthusiasm for AI, Cybre, Space and "virtually" nowt else. I can see a serious suggestion from the innovators to propose a virtual red arrowsUnhappy A sign of things to comeGrrr

FB

[SirToppamHat]

Originally Posted by typerated

I think it is to be housing - so will only be available for limited time period.
Donna Nook is an option - with a long transit.
But the RAFAT might not survive the next review? Lots of talk (again) of no Sacred Cows!

Housing? Same old story ... large brown field site = ideal for housing right? But no-one wants to live there. transport links are non-existent, even if there were jobs to go to (there aren't). It's also on top of a hill and pretty exposed. Worst of all, it's going to need a heck of a lot of remediation. Special weapons core storage probably not a massive issue, but the fuel used by Blue Steel and the aircraft themselves over many years (before we woke up to the need for environmental care in all such things) is likely, IMHO, to wipe any profitability out of the place.

Could the Govt afford to remediate? The alternative would seem to be that the MOD/Govt walks away and locks the gates shut, leaving the site to rot as they have elsewhere.

As for Virtual Red Arrows? What a silly idea; it will never work:

You Tube

and

You Tube

STH

[ShyTorque]

Maybe this....:

You Tube

[typerated]

They just need a new mount:


Realistically a 3 aircraft team would more than do a job.
If I was a teenager I'd much prefer 3 Typhoons and lots of afterburner to 9 hawks.
A lot cheaper to run I'd imagine.
Could use painted spares aircraft for state flypasts to bump the team up to a 5 ship once or twice a year.

[Finningley Boy]

Originally Posted by typerated

They just need a new mount:


Realistically a 3 aircraft team would more than do a job.
If I was a teenager I'd much prefer 3 Typhoons and lots of afterburner to 9 hawks.
A lot cheaper to run I'd imagine.
Could use painted spares aircraft for state flypasts to bump the team up to a 5 ship once or twice a year.

Perhaps a 4-ship and a solo, sometimes with or separate. That would certainly do it. It all depends of course on the very uncertain future we currently face of course, the RAF, indeed, HM Forces, have very little depth now, what I mean is elasticity, surplus, there isn't any. But remember, I think it was Stalin, rightly said, Quantity has a quality all of its own. Something like that anyway.

FB