RAF Start Talks on E-3D Replacement
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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https://www.defensenews.com/industry...-aircraft-buy/
Britain confirms talks with Boeing over potential $2.6B Wedgetail aircraft buy
Britain confirms talks with Boeing over potential $2.6B Wedgetail aircraft buy
The UK should just buy Wedgetail off the shelf, rip out all the working gear, fit "better" locally based components and a few domes to boost domestic content... how hard can that be?
Recently came across this gem thumbing through a 1982 Air International....
Recently came across this gem thumbing through a 1982 Air International....
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As I keep writing every time this subject comes up....the only reason we ended up with Nimrod AEW3 was because the government of the day wanted a "competition" to keep the rabid unions quiet. Everyone knew that the RAF would get the E-3. However, they failed to recognise that there would be a snap election before the competition result was announced, and the subsequent Callaghan Labour government was so in the unions' pockets that they were not allowed to buy what was in reality the only contender. We therefore wasted close to £1bn (a lot of cash in the 70s/80s) in buying a British product that anyone on day 2 of a basic radar course would recognise could not work....and it didn't (huge problem with the antennae and the choice of PRF giving a low speed clutter notch that did not get rid of the clutter caused by the antennae). Please G*d that it doesn't happen again!!!!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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MOD making pointed references to the Nimwacs debacle - perhaps justifiably.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...illance-plane/
Pressure mounts on UK defense chief over pick of Boeing surveillance plane
LONDON — British defense procurement officials are facing fresh questions about their plan to buy Boeing Wedgetail E-7 airborne early warning aircraft for the Royal Air Force without holding a competition. At issue is whether the government is rightfully leaning toward sole-sourcing the U.S. contractor's offering over a European-made system consisting of Saab's Erieye radar and an Airbus 330 airframe.
In one of two letters released late Oct. 17 by the parliamentary Defence Committee, Saab United Kingdom boss Andrew Walton rejected the Ministry of Defence’s argument that marrying the company’s sensor with the Airbus plane would pose a problem. Instead, he explained, the combination would represent the “lowest risk” of any platform on which Erieye has been placed. The Saab letter was made public alongside a missive from panel Chairman Julian Lewis to Defence Procurement Minister Stuart Andrew. That letter poses several questions about how the MoD reached its decision to move forward with a plan to sole-source the Wedgetail when the ministry lacked detailed information on the A330-Erieye combination.
In particular Lewis wanted to know why an offer from Saab to supply classified technical information relating to the performance of Erieye was declined by the RAF and the Defence Equipment and Support organization.
It’s highly unusual, if not unprecedented, that a letter publicly refuting the procurement reasoning of the MoD and its officials is published.........
Saab’s Walton used his letter to defend the company’s ability to meet MoD timelines. “Detailed analysis indicates that it would take less than 36 months to integrate the first A330-Erieye system and subsequent platforms would follow at nine-month intervals,” the executive wrote. The Swedish company would lead the integration effort. The Saab letter said the first A330 integration would take place in Madrid, Spain, where Airbus has a military aircraft facility, but the remainder of the aircraft would be modified in the U.K.......
The Swedish company said it had never failed to integrate the AEW system despite supplying Erieye to eight air forces, using five different platforms. Saab is currently integrating a new extended-range version of Erieye on a modified Bombardier business jet for the United Arab Emirates, and the letter says Saab is in advanced negotiations for another AEW customer.
The letter from Walton was made public following testimony to lawmakers earlier Wednesday by Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson and other defense leaders. Williamson and his officials told the committee that Wedgetail offered an opportunity to deliver the best capability at the earliest possible stage.
Air Vice Marshal Knighton, the British assistant chief of the Defence Staff for capability and force design, labeled the combination of the A330 and the Erieye a “paper aircraft” and said the system had particular integration challenges relating to the size of the wing of the jet. “Because of the size of the wing, the A330 requires two radar antenna on top of the aircraft [rather than one]. It’s going to require complex integration to ensure you can unmask the radar from the wings; none of this has been done before," he told the committee. "The risk isn’t in the aircraft but the integration — that’s the challenge.”
It’s the second time in a week MoD officials have used the integration risk to justify not holding a competition. Last week, Lt. Gen. Mark Poffley, deputy chief of the Defence Staff for finance and military capability, told the committee: “We have analyzed a series of options, including one from Airbus with Saab, and that has led us to the conclusion that we ought to pursue the implications of going single-source.”
Poffley appeared to point the finger at Airbus for some of the integration doubts.
“For the purposes of Airbus, it is about their ability to deliver in the time frames and to mitigate many of the risks we believe are inside that solution. We think we therefore need to pursue single-source,” he said. “If you think about what we are trying to do here, it is to take a radar, some communication equipment and some aircraft systems, and integrate them inside an aircraft. That aircraft then has to be certified, and with complicated software programs of this type, our experience of all of that has led us to believe that even in the most optimistic of circumstances, the time frames are unlikely to meet where we think we need to be in order to counter the threat,” Poffley said.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...illance-plane/
Pressure mounts on UK defense chief over pick of Boeing surveillance plane
LONDON — British defense procurement officials are facing fresh questions about their plan to buy Boeing Wedgetail E-7 airborne early warning aircraft for the Royal Air Force without holding a competition. At issue is whether the government is rightfully leaning toward sole-sourcing the U.S. contractor's offering over a European-made system consisting of Saab's Erieye radar and an Airbus 330 airframe.
In one of two letters released late Oct. 17 by the parliamentary Defence Committee, Saab United Kingdom boss Andrew Walton rejected the Ministry of Defence’s argument that marrying the company’s sensor with the Airbus plane would pose a problem. Instead, he explained, the combination would represent the “lowest risk” of any platform on which Erieye has been placed. The Saab letter was made public alongside a missive from panel Chairman Julian Lewis to Defence Procurement Minister Stuart Andrew. That letter poses several questions about how the MoD reached its decision to move forward with a plan to sole-source the Wedgetail when the ministry lacked detailed information on the A330-Erieye combination.
In particular Lewis wanted to know why an offer from Saab to supply classified technical information relating to the performance of Erieye was declined by the RAF and the Defence Equipment and Support organization.
It’s highly unusual, if not unprecedented, that a letter publicly refuting the procurement reasoning of the MoD and its officials is published.........
Saab’s Walton used his letter to defend the company’s ability to meet MoD timelines. “Detailed analysis indicates that it would take less than 36 months to integrate the first A330-Erieye system and subsequent platforms would follow at nine-month intervals,” the executive wrote. The Swedish company would lead the integration effort. The Saab letter said the first A330 integration would take place in Madrid, Spain, where Airbus has a military aircraft facility, but the remainder of the aircraft would be modified in the U.K.......
The Swedish company said it had never failed to integrate the AEW system despite supplying Erieye to eight air forces, using five different platforms. Saab is currently integrating a new extended-range version of Erieye on a modified Bombardier business jet for the United Arab Emirates, and the letter says Saab is in advanced negotiations for another AEW customer.
The letter from Walton was made public following testimony to lawmakers earlier Wednesday by Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson and other defense leaders. Williamson and his officials told the committee that Wedgetail offered an opportunity to deliver the best capability at the earliest possible stage.
Air Vice Marshal Knighton, the British assistant chief of the Defence Staff for capability and force design, labeled the combination of the A330 and the Erieye a “paper aircraft” and said the system had particular integration challenges relating to the size of the wing of the jet. “Because of the size of the wing, the A330 requires two radar antenna on top of the aircraft [rather than one]. It’s going to require complex integration to ensure you can unmask the radar from the wings; none of this has been done before," he told the committee. "The risk isn’t in the aircraft but the integration — that’s the challenge.”
It’s the second time in a week MoD officials have used the integration risk to justify not holding a competition. Last week, Lt. Gen. Mark Poffley, deputy chief of the Defence Staff for finance and military capability, told the committee: “We have analyzed a series of options, including one from Airbus with Saab, and that has led us to the conclusion that we ought to pursue the implications of going single-source.”
Poffley appeared to point the finger at Airbus for some of the integration doubts.
“For the purposes of Airbus, it is about their ability to deliver in the time frames and to mitigate many of the risks we believe are inside that solution. We think we therefore need to pursue single-source,” he said. “If you think about what we are trying to do here, it is to take a radar, some communication equipment and some aircraft systems, and integrate them inside an aircraft. That aircraft then has to be certified, and with complicated software programs of this type, our experience of all of that has led us to believe that even in the most optimistic of circumstances, the time frames are unlikely to meet where we think we need to be in order to counter the threat,” Poffley said.
Airbus missed the bus back in the late 1990s when they decided not to continue with development of the A310 AEW&C project.
Airbus Industrie would have provided the air platform, design and engineering support, with ELTA providing an electronically scanned array radar and Raytheon the overall system integration. The radar antenna would have been similar in appearance to that fitted to the E-3.
Planned mission duration was to have been in excess of 11 hours, so it must have been planned to fit (5?) MRTT-style ACTs.
The A310 has the same fuselage cross-section as the A330 - so the A310 AEW&C would have provided rather more generous mission crew comfort than in a 737-based design.
Airbus Industrie would have provided the air platform, design and engineering support, with ELTA providing an electronically scanned array radar and Raytheon the overall system integration. The radar antenna would have been similar in appearance to that fitted to the E-3.
Planned mission duration was to have been in excess of 11 hours, so it must have been planned to fit (5?) MRTT-style ACTs.
The A310 has the same fuselage cross-section as the A330 - so the A310 AEW&C would have provided rather more generous mission crew comfort than in a 737-based design.
The 737AEW&C or Wedgetail may be the best choice.
I do not believe that the UK has taken the necessary steps to determine that this is the case, however.
The UAE decided that the 737AEW&C was an inferior solution to the Globaleye (Global Express with Erieye ER). They were offered Erieye, 737AEW&C and E-2D and selected Globaleye. Many sources suggest that the 737AEW&C didn't even come second! That should surely indicate that some proper analysis/evaluation of Globaleye would have been appropriate, before making a decision in favour of an uncompeted, sole source procurement of Wedgetail?
Many air forces are turning away from big, airliner-based AEW&C and ISR platforms in favour of biz-jet based solutions. Italy, Singapore, Israel, for starters, with some indication that the US might also follow that approach. That should surely indicate that some proper analysis/evaluation of bizjet platforms would have been appropriate, before making a decision in favour of an uncompeted, sole source procurement of Wedgetail?
And if there are compelling reasons to go down the route of having a bigger, airliner-based solution, then one based on Voyager, with higher UK content than a 737, and with RR engines, should at least have been properly evaluated, before making a decision in favour of an uncompeted, sole source procurement of Wedgetail?
The Turks don't seem to have been very impressed by 737AEW&C so far, and IIRC, nor were the Aussies, early on. The E-7/737AEW&C radar has been out of production for the best part of a decade, while Erieye has undergone constant development and improvement, and has been proven in Europe by the Swedes and a NATO ally, Greece, as well as in Brazil, Pakistan, the UAE and Saudi Arabia. Sorry. 'Country X'. That should surely indicate that some proper analysis/evaluation of the Erieye ER radar would have been appropriate, before making a decision in favour of an uncompeted, sole source procurement of Wedgetail?
I understand that the planned Aussie upgrade of Wedgetail may be transformational, and may lift the 737AEW&C into a clear, class-leading position, but it is far from clear that the 737AEW&C, as it exists TODAY, enjoys anything like the superiority that has been claimed by some and implied by others.
It is also clear that there has been no serious analysis or evaluation of alternatives to Wedgetail. The refusal to accept classified Erieye data is jaw-dropping and shocking.
After the similarly uncompeted order for Boeing P-8A Poseidons, more Boeing Chinooks, and the equally uncompeted order for Boeing AH-64E Apache Guardians, this looks awful, and for the sake of appearances alone, more than a cursory look at options would surely have been appropriate, before making a decision in favour of an uncompeted, sole source procurement of Wedgetail?
Getting one of AOC ISTAR's Wing Commanders to have a quick look at Google and Wikipedia, incidentally, doesn't count as a serious analysis or evaluation of alternatives......
I do not believe that the UK has taken the necessary steps to determine that this is the case, however.
The UAE decided that the 737AEW&C was an inferior solution to the Globaleye (Global Express with Erieye ER). They were offered Erieye, 737AEW&C and E-2D and selected Globaleye. Many sources suggest that the 737AEW&C didn't even come second! That should surely indicate that some proper analysis/evaluation of Globaleye would have been appropriate, before making a decision in favour of an uncompeted, sole source procurement of Wedgetail?
Many air forces are turning away from big, airliner-based AEW&C and ISR platforms in favour of biz-jet based solutions. Italy, Singapore, Israel, for starters, with some indication that the US might also follow that approach. That should surely indicate that some proper analysis/evaluation of bizjet platforms would have been appropriate, before making a decision in favour of an uncompeted, sole source procurement of Wedgetail?
And if there are compelling reasons to go down the route of having a bigger, airliner-based solution, then one based on Voyager, with higher UK content than a 737, and with RR engines, should at least have been properly evaluated, before making a decision in favour of an uncompeted, sole source procurement of Wedgetail?
The Turks don't seem to have been very impressed by 737AEW&C so far, and IIRC, nor were the Aussies, early on. The E-7/737AEW&C radar has been out of production for the best part of a decade, while Erieye has undergone constant development and improvement, and has been proven in Europe by the Swedes and a NATO ally, Greece, as well as in Brazil, Pakistan, the UAE and Saudi Arabia. Sorry. 'Country X'. That should surely indicate that some proper analysis/evaluation of the Erieye ER radar would have been appropriate, before making a decision in favour of an uncompeted, sole source procurement of Wedgetail?
I understand that the planned Aussie upgrade of Wedgetail may be transformational, and may lift the 737AEW&C into a clear, class-leading position, but it is far from clear that the 737AEW&C, as it exists TODAY, enjoys anything like the superiority that has been claimed by some and implied by others.
It is also clear that there has been no serious analysis or evaluation of alternatives to Wedgetail. The refusal to accept classified Erieye data is jaw-dropping and shocking.
After the similarly uncompeted order for Boeing P-8A Poseidons, more Boeing Chinooks, and the equally uncompeted order for Boeing AH-64E Apache Guardians, this looks awful, and for the sake of appearances alone, more than a cursory look at options would surely have been appropriate, before making a decision in favour of an uncompeted, sole source procurement of Wedgetail?
Getting one of AOC ISTAR's Wing Commanders to have a quick look at Google and Wikipedia, incidentally, doesn't count as a serious analysis or evaluation of alternatives......
The 737AEW&C or Wedgetail may be the best choice.
understand that the planned Aussie upgrade of Wedgetail may be transformational, and may lift the 737AEW&C into a clear, class-leading position, but it is far from clear that the 737AEW&C, as it exists TODAY, enjoys anything like the superiority that has been claimed by some and implied by others.
understand that the planned Aussie upgrade of Wedgetail may be transformational, and may lift the 737AEW&C into a clear, class-leading position, but it is far from clear that the 737AEW&C, as it exists TODAY, enjoys anything like the superiority that has been claimed by some and implied by others.
Junior.VH-LFA
No current Erieye ER has operated in the Middle East in the last 3 years, making comparisons difficult.
In any event - I'm not saying that the RAF should not acquire Wedgetail, merely that it should make a proper, in-depth evaluation of the competing contenders before doing so.
No current Erieye ER has operated in the Middle East in the last 3 years, making comparisons difficult.
In any event - I'm not saying that the RAF should not acquire Wedgetail, merely that it should make a proper, in-depth evaluation of the competing contenders before doing so.
Potential competitors:
Flying: GlobalEye, E-2D, Israeli G550-based AEW
'Paper' aeroplanes: Erieye equipped A330, C295AEW,
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Just a thought, but while UAE may have considered the E-7 inferior to GlobalEye, the men from Abu Dhabi probably did not get to look over the Wedgetail variant of E-7 which is a very different kettle of fish. MoD has made that distinction very clear.
Last edited by TwoStep; 24th Oct 2018 at 09:50. Reason: Silly grammatical error.
the Wedgetail variant of E-7 which is a very different kettle of fish
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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I can see why the MOD ran away when the idea of using the Airtanker airframes was proposed - what would the arrangement have been, a leased AEW fleet?
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018...ing-wedgetail/
UK MoD: Other bidders didn’t have a chance against Boeing Wedgetail
LONDON — A proposal to acquire a fleet of Boeing Wedgetail airborne early warning aircraft for the Royal Air Force was so far in advance of a rival Saab/Airbus offering that the British Ministry of Defence felt it would be a waste of time and money to hold a competition, according to Defence Procurement Minister Stuart Andrew.
“In considering the E-7 Wedgetail , there was such a clear distinction over any other options it was felt that running any type of competition would unnecessarily consume MoD and industry resources, whilst the gap between U.K. capability and the evolving threat would be expected to widen,” Andrew said in a letter to Parliamentary Defence Select Committee Chairman Julian Lewis MP. The letter, dated Nov. 1, but only released Nov. 14, was the MoD’s response to concerns raised by Saab in a letter to Lewis in mid-October refuting claims by the ministry that marrying the Airbus A330 airframe with the Swedish company’s Erieye radar presented a significant risk...........
In its mid-October letter to Lewis though the Swedish company refuted concerns that its plan to fit two Erieye radars to the A330 to overcome possible wing blanking issues was high risk. The Saab letter said the A330 would be the “lowest risk” of any of the five platforms fitted with Erieye.
The Airbus/Saab solution was based on the use of A330 Voyager aircraft already available to the RAF for inflight refueling and transport duties as part of a long-term private finance initiative deal between Airbus and the MoD.
Fourteen A330s are available to the RAF with nine being used on a regular basis for military duties and the remainder on call as surge capacity when needed. In the meantime the aircraft are available for third-party charter. It was the surge capacity aircraft the Europeans proposed to adapt for AEW duties, possibly replacing them later with new aircraft fitted a boom refueling capability. The current British A330s only have a probe and drogue capability.
Andrew said the AEW role is not compatible with refuelling and transport roles. The procurement minister said additional aircraft would have to be obtained incurring high procurement and operating costs higher than the 737. Andrew’s letter said the MoD had no endorsed requirement for a boom and reopening the private finance initiative deal with Airbus would not be in the MoD or the taxpayers interest........
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018...ing-wedgetail/
UK MoD: Other bidders didn’t have a chance against Boeing Wedgetail
LONDON — A proposal to acquire a fleet of Boeing Wedgetail airborne early warning aircraft for the Royal Air Force was so far in advance of a rival Saab/Airbus offering that the British Ministry of Defence felt it would be a waste of time and money to hold a competition, according to Defence Procurement Minister Stuart Andrew.
“In considering the E-7 Wedgetail , there was such a clear distinction over any other options it was felt that running any type of competition would unnecessarily consume MoD and industry resources, whilst the gap between U.K. capability and the evolving threat would be expected to widen,” Andrew said in a letter to Parliamentary Defence Select Committee Chairman Julian Lewis MP. The letter, dated Nov. 1, but only released Nov. 14, was the MoD’s response to concerns raised by Saab in a letter to Lewis in mid-October refuting claims by the ministry that marrying the Airbus A330 airframe with the Swedish company’s Erieye radar presented a significant risk...........
In its mid-October letter to Lewis though the Swedish company refuted concerns that its plan to fit two Erieye radars to the A330 to overcome possible wing blanking issues was high risk. The Saab letter said the A330 would be the “lowest risk” of any of the five platforms fitted with Erieye.
The Airbus/Saab solution was based on the use of A330 Voyager aircraft already available to the RAF for inflight refueling and transport duties as part of a long-term private finance initiative deal between Airbus and the MoD.
Fourteen A330s are available to the RAF with nine being used on a regular basis for military duties and the remainder on call as surge capacity when needed. In the meantime the aircraft are available for third-party charter. It was the surge capacity aircraft the Europeans proposed to adapt for AEW duties, possibly replacing them later with new aircraft fitted a boom refueling capability. The current British A330s only have a probe and drogue capability.
Andrew said the AEW role is not compatible with refuelling and transport roles. The procurement minister said additional aircraft would have to be obtained incurring high procurement and operating costs higher than the 737. Andrew’s letter said the MoD had no endorsed requirement for a boom and reopening the private finance initiative deal with Airbus would not be in the MoD or the taxpayers interest........
Andrew’s letter said the MoD had no endorsed requirement for a boom and reopening the private finance initiative deal with Airbus would not be in the MoD or the taxpayers interest........
By that argument , the endorsed requirement should already have manifested itself-RJ, P8, (C17) as well as E3 when it actually flies, not to mention the STANAG which covers interoperability with our allies. From an AAR point of view, the E7 procurement further shows a lack of forethought (admittedly this is not an isolated example of such).