Lifting Nosewheel on T/O - Why So?
Hi TT! Glad to hear that you're enjoying life sipping chilled rosé in the sun - are you coming over for a TBs again session soon?
At least in later years Nav Flt Svcs at Group were able to produce RTOGs for unfamiliar aerodromes and fax them over quite quickly, although the print quality was often rather poor. Full ODM calcs weren't much fun and I didn't envy anyone having to do that when up against a tight RV time!
Wasn't there was some nonsense in the early days of the C1K concerning aircraft libraries as they didn't routinely carry RTOGs, except in the route bags for the trip? I recall taking a C1K to Leuchars doing a K:C pilot conversion trip only to find that the shinies didn't carry any RTOGs for Leuchars... I think we ended up using VC10K balanced field figures, but being very light performance was hardly an issue, particularly on the easterly runway.
Guinness? I have an aversion to that, except for cooking. My own fault; in 1973 having been at the UAS Annual Dinner at the Piccadilly Hotel, involving plenty of G&T beforehand, much vino during the meal and a hip flask of Glenfiddich having successfully given my speech, it was back to the UAS bar for a few beers....and at around midnight it seemed the ideal time to try Guinness for the first time
. It lasted 29 seconds - whereas it took 28 to reach trap one from the bar....
Ever since then I haven't been able to drink it!
At least in later years Nav Flt Svcs at Group were able to produce RTOGs for unfamiliar aerodromes and fax them over quite quickly, although the print quality was often rather poor. Full ODM calcs weren't much fun and I didn't envy anyone having to do that when up against a tight RV time!
Wasn't there was some nonsense in the early days of the C1K concerning aircraft libraries as they didn't routinely carry RTOGs, except in the route bags for the trip? I recall taking a C1K to Leuchars doing a K:C pilot conversion trip only to find that the shinies didn't carry any RTOGs for Leuchars... I think we ended up using VC10K balanced field figures, but being very light performance was hardly an issue, particularly on the easterly runway.
Guinness? I have an aversion to that, except for cooking. My own fault; in 1973 having been at the UAS Annual Dinner at the Piccadilly Hotel, involving plenty of G&T beforehand, much vino during the meal and a hip flask of Glenfiddich having successfully given my speech, it was back to the UAS bar for a few beers....and at around midnight it seemed the ideal time to try Guinness for the first time
. It lasted 29 seconds - whereas it took 28 to reach trap one from the bar.... Ever since then I haven't been able to drink it!
Beags, the only place to drink Guinness is in the Emerald Isle - it just tastes different.
Hated it whenever I tried it in Blighty, but after a long range job from Chiv to refuel at Castletownbere and do another 5 1/2 hours out to 17 West and back in a Sea King, we had run out of crew duty (and it was 0200) but the hotel bar was still open so it was the black stuff all round and it tasted magnificent
Hated it whenever I tried it in Blighty, but after a long range job from Chiv to refuel at Castletownbere and do another 5 1/2 hours out to 17 West and back in a Sea King, we had run out of crew duty (and it was 0200) but the hotel bar was still open so it was the black stuff all round and it tasted magnificent
Night before wedding, best man and I went out for a few (dozen). After a few he came up with what seemed to be a unique idea. Giving to my Irish heritage we would drink pints of Guinness. As he was Mexican, we would follow the pints with shots of tequila. Seemed brilliant at the time.
IIRC, the superiority of Guinness as consumed in the Emerald Isle was always put down to the Liffey water in the days it was also brewed in Blighty. That theory no longer holds water... 
Ahem! Judging from all the previous posts, this premature nose-wheel-lifting technique seems to have three possible explanations: tradition, propensity to shimmy, or tyre-speed limitations. The parallel thread on AH&N has a posting by Dave Reid with a video of a Comet IV, which seems to be extending its nose oleo for quite a long time before rotation. (I doubt the nose-wheels are actually clear of the runway, but stand to be corrected.) Starting from 1971, I don't remember being taught to do this on any jet airliner, although the VC10 and One Eleven had been known to suffer shimmy on occasion. I think neutral elevator was the norm, or even a bit of down elevator in a crosswind. (BTW, the B707-320 would allegedly rotate spontaneously at about V2 without pilot input - it used to be demonstrated in the sim.)
Then there's the matter of tyre-speed limits. On a civil aeroplane it would surely be illegal to plan a take-off with a VR, or even V2, that involved a ground-speed above the nose-tyre speed-limit? And would the same restriction not apply to military ops in peacetime?
I was at Brooklands today, and can confirm that the ex-BUA/BCAL/Omani Type 1103 VC10 has 225 mph chined tyres fitted to its nose-wheels, as I remember from flying it in the early 1970s. FWIW, the Type 1101 fuselage also on display (G-ARVM), on the other hand, has a pair of very aged 200 mph chined tyres. In still-air at Nairobi, that could have been the most limiting factor for the RTOW calculation, although I don't have any performance graphs for the Type 1101.
Thanks, TT. Your operation was a lot more complex than ours... (What is "ODM"?) I wonder if Jhieminga is following this VC10 nostalgia... The CMk1 seems to have been a development of the Type 1103: standard fuselage, "combi" with "super" wing; the improvements being "super" engines and an APU? Did it also have the fin fuel-tank of the Supers? The ex-EAAC Super VC10s, like the K3 now at Dunsfold (the last VC10 off the Brooklands production line), were also combis and therefore easier to insert the fuselage fuel-tanks.
Ahem! Judging from all the previous posts, this premature nose-wheel-lifting technique seems to have three possible explanations: tradition, propensity to shimmy, or tyre-speed limitations. The parallel thread on AH&N has a posting by Dave Reid with a video of a Comet IV, which seems to be extending its nose oleo for quite a long time before rotation. (I doubt the nose-wheels are actually clear of the runway, but stand to be corrected.) Starting from 1971, I don't remember being taught to do this on any jet airliner, although the VC10 and One Eleven had been known to suffer shimmy on occasion. I think neutral elevator was the norm, or even a bit of down elevator in a crosswind. (BTW, the B707-320 would allegedly rotate spontaneously at about V2 without pilot input - it used to be demonstrated in the sim.)
Then there's the matter of tyre-speed limits. On a civil aeroplane it would surely be illegal to plan a take-off with a VR, or even V2, that involved a ground-speed above the nose-tyre speed-limit? And would the same restriction not apply to military ops in peacetime?
I was at Brooklands today, and can confirm that the ex-BUA/BCAL/Omani Type 1103 VC10 has 225 mph chined tyres fitted to its nose-wheels, as I remember from flying it in the early 1970s. FWIW, the Type 1101 fuselage also on display (G-ARVM), on the other hand, has a pair of very aged 200 mph chined tyres. In still-air at Nairobi, that could have been the most limiting factor for the RTOW calculation, although I don't have any performance graphs for the Type 1101.
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The RAF had the VC10CMk1, which was the new aircraft for 10 Sqn. These were a Hybrid with Standard (ie short) body and Super wings. These had the ODMs for the type. When we acquired the Tanker aircraft we had old BOAC/Gulf Air Standards as K2s and Old East African Airways Supers as K3s. All the aircraft had the same standardised engines.
The Tanker ODMs were produced to different standards to the original RAF VC10 C1s, and did not cover the same operating limits (more limiting) as it was not envisaged that we would operate worldwide, thereby saving a couple of quid in their production.
The ODM was produced for the K2(Standard) with fiddle factors to be applied to the K3. The K4(Ex BA Supers) had the same performance as the K3s.
We had Regulated TakeOff Graphs(RTOGs) produced, for the various types,
at selected airfields as well as Balanced Field Graphs you could use if Max TOW was not a problem.
If you had to operate at MTOW from an airfield that was not in the book of RTOGS it was back to struggling with the ODM.
The RAF had the VC10CMk1, which was the new aircraft for 10 Sqn. These were a Hybrid with Standard (ie short) body and Super wings. These had the ODMs for the type. When we acquired the Tanker aircraft we had old BOAC/Gulf Air Standards as K2s and Old East African Airways Supers as K3s. All the aircraft had the same standardised engines.
The Tanker ODMs were produced to different standards to the original RAF VC10 C1s, and did not cover the same operating limits (more limiting) as it was not envisaged that we would operate worldwide, thereby saving a couple of quid in their production.
The ODM was produced for the K2(Standard) with fiddle factors to be applied to the K3. The K4(Ex BA Supers) had the same performance as the K3s.
We had Regulated TakeOff Graphs(RTOGs) produced, for the various types,
at selected airfields as well as Balanced Field Graphs you could use if Max TOW was not a problem.
If you had to operate at MTOW from an airfield that was not in the book of RTOGS it was back to struggling with the ODM.
The RAF VC10 fleet had the following fuel tanks:
RAF VC10C1 and VC10C1K: Wing / Centre + Fin
Ex-BOAC / Gulf Air Standard VC10 (VC10K2): Wing / Centre + Fuselage
Ex-EAAC Super VC10 (VC10K3): Wing / Centre + Fuselage + Fin
Ex-BA Super VC10 (VC10K4): Wing / Centre + Fin
Regarding freight doors, the C1 / C1K and K3 had them, but they were only operable on the C1 / C1K.
RAF VC10C1 and VC10C1K: Wing / Centre + Fin
Ex-BOAC / Gulf Air Standard VC10 (VC10K2): Wing / Centre + Fuselage
Ex-EAAC Super VC10 (VC10K3): Wing / Centre + Fuselage + Fin
Ex-BA Super VC10 (VC10K4): Wing / Centre + Fin
Regarding freight doors, the C1 / C1K and K3 had them, but they were only operable on the C1 / C1K.
