Military short of 800 pilots?
@heights good
I thought I would have a go at your list to try and add a bit of balance:
99% of the UK population stay in the same location for their entire careers,
Some aircrew that have spent much of their careers at the same MOB - esoecially if it is the only one that operates a particular type. Brize, Odiham, Benson, Waddington and previously Lyneham all had their ‘mafia’ that rarely moved. Plus now we have Force HQs there are also staff jobs in the same place
can hand in their notice if they are fed up with the job,
But the flip side to this is that you can also be given your notice within 1-2 months. The commercial sector is not known for being nice when the company’s chips are down
they can tell their boss his leadership style is crap,
Yeah, right. My better half works in the City and if she told her boss he was crap then she would be out of a job in a month.
they have tenants rights,
To what?
Given the correct tools to do the job,
Only if the company can afford it. Plenty of corporate manslaughter cases if you Google them - one of the first in the UK was against P&O Ferries and there have been plenty in the railway business
are compensated for nights away,
What like LSA, Overnight Subsistence and Op Allowance?
have houses fit to live in,
The same houses we can buy and live in?
can have a private life,
I haven’t “lived on the patch” since 2002
can keep work and home life 100% separate,
In the Commercial world then you are expected to answer calls and tele-conferences any time of the day or night
have hotels paid for by their company up-front,
Last time I stayed in a HRG Central Hotel Booking Service hotel it was paid for?
can refuse to do anything they are asked to do,
Yes, and if the company doesn’t like it they will show you the door!
can plan their life more than a month in advance,
Have you ever heard of an Airline Roster? You are often a slave to it just 4 weeks hence.
can choose to live where they want, are trusted to wipe their own backside,
Yup, got me on that. The trust shown by the Armed Forces policies on its personnel is exceptionally poor
Have a credit rating that doesnt have a plethora of addresses on it,
See first answer - plenty have stayed at or close to their MoBs
Dont have to move house every 2 yrs,
Average posting is 3 years with some going to 5 these days. Getting a posting to another Sqn or the FHQ at the same location also more likely.
are not working 2 jobs but getting paid for one,
Lots of this goes on in the Commercial sector - people get hired and fired quickly and the rest have to pick up the pieces
are not sent on bollocks courses,
Oh yes they are. HSE, D&I and all that is just as prevalent in the civil sector
can travel anywhere in the world without telling an adult,
The only places you can’t go as a Service person are probably places that you would want the Security Flt to guve you some tips on anyway!!
can make decisions for themselves,
I make my own decisions, why can’t you?
can provide their children a stable home life,
Continuity of Education Allowance can keep your kids geographically stable, also during GCSE and A-Levels then preferential treatment can be given. Or you could do what many in the country do - commute. Average commute in the UK is 1 hr with over 4 million workers commuting 2 hrs. The Forces are spoiled with some of the short commuting options they are given
2 schools for their children’s entire education,
With CEA help you could get a Prep School followed by a Boarding School - and if you move back to the area they can become a day pupil
attend every wedding/birthday/funeral,
Look at the Corporal Clott post with the link to the BALPA blog. There is a story on there from an airline pilot that missed his daughter’s wedding. I would say that is unheard of in the military
Never be asked to take a life,
Unless you work for the police or you are an animal vet!
and perhaps most of all never get shot at or put directly in harms way at the whim of a politician....
Again, Policemen, Firemen, Paramedics, private contractors all have to deal with this sort of stuff
Just sayin’
I thought I would have a go at your list to try and add a bit of balance:
99% of the UK population stay in the same location for their entire careers,
Some aircrew that have spent much of their careers at the same MOB - esoecially if it is the only one that operates a particular type. Brize, Odiham, Benson, Waddington and previously Lyneham all had their ‘mafia’ that rarely moved. Plus now we have Force HQs there are also staff jobs in the same place
can hand in their notice if they are fed up with the job,
But the flip side to this is that you can also be given your notice within 1-2 months. The commercial sector is not known for being nice when the company’s chips are down
they can tell their boss his leadership style is crap,
Yeah, right. My better half works in the City and if she told her boss he was crap then she would be out of a job in a month.
they have tenants rights,
To what?
Given the correct tools to do the job,
Only if the company can afford it. Plenty of corporate manslaughter cases if you Google them - one of the first in the UK was against P&O Ferries and there have been plenty in the railway business
are compensated for nights away,
What like LSA, Overnight Subsistence and Op Allowance?
have houses fit to live in,
The same houses we can buy and live in?
can have a private life,
I haven’t “lived on the patch” since 2002
can keep work and home life 100% separate,
In the Commercial world then you are expected to answer calls and tele-conferences any time of the day or night
have hotels paid for by their company up-front,
Last time I stayed in a HRG Central Hotel Booking Service hotel it was paid for?
can refuse to do anything they are asked to do,
Yes, and if the company doesn’t like it they will show you the door!
can plan their life more than a month in advance,
Have you ever heard of an Airline Roster? You are often a slave to it just 4 weeks hence.
can choose to live where they want, are trusted to wipe their own backside,
Yup, got me on that. The trust shown by the Armed Forces policies on its personnel is exceptionally poor
Have a credit rating that doesnt have a plethora of addresses on it,
See first answer - plenty have stayed at or close to their MoBs
Dont have to move house every 2 yrs,
Average posting is 3 years with some going to 5 these days. Getting a posting to another Sqn or the FHQ at the same location also more likely.
are not working 2 jobs but getting paid for one,
Lots of this goes on in the Commercial sector - people get hired and fired quickly and the rest have to pick up the pieces
are not sent on bollocks courses,
Oh yes they are. HSE, D&I and all that is just as prevalent in the civil sector
can travel anywhere in the world without telling an adult,
The only places you can’t go as a Service person are probably places that you would want the Security Flt to guve you some tips on anyway!!
can make decisions for themselves,
I make my own decisions, why can’t you?
can provide their children a stable home life,
Continuity of Education Allowance can keep your kids geographically stable, also during GCSE and A-Levels then preferential treatment can be given. Or you could do what many in the country do - commute. Average commute in the UK is 1 hr with over 4 million workers commuting 2 hrs. The Forces are spoiled with some of the short commuting options they are given
2 schools for their children’s entire education,
With CEA help you could get a Prep School followed by a Boarding School - and if you move back to the area they can become a day pupil
attend every wedding/birthday/funeral,
Look at the Corporal Clott post with the link to the BALPA blog. There is a story on there from an airline pilot that missed his daughter’s wedding. I would say that is unheard of in the military
Never be asked to take a life,
Unless you work for the police or you are an animal vet!
and perhaps most of all never get shot at or put directly in harms way at the whim of a politician....
Again, Policemen, Firemen, Paramedics, private contractors all have to deal with this sort of stuff
Just sayin’
200k in what currency?!!
Even a long-haul Trg Captain doesn’t make £200k, probably more like £120k to £140k. Then they have to contribute to their pension unlike the Armed Forces who contribute 52% of our wages into AFPS - so a Flt Lt earning £50k gets £26k extra put into the pension pot per year. I think BA have just upped their employer contributions from 9% to 15% but that is still well short of our 52%.
The only way you will earn mega bucks in flying is to go to the Middle East for some tax free salary action - but then that is not for everyone (I politely declined some years ago). They also will get their monies worth out of you.
So, if you are thinking of going down the route of an airline pilot career, the work-life balance isn’t really any rosier than the forces - have a read of the BALPA blog if you don’t believe me:
https://blog.balpa.org/Blog/October-...alance-Pilot-A
As ever, we all have to make the choices that fit our own personal circumstances, but I don’t believe that airline flying is this wonderful Utopia with mega wages. It will be a job with many frustrations like any other.
CPL Clott
Even a long-haul Trg Captain doesn’t make £200k, probably more like £120k to £140k. Then they have to contribute to their pension unlike the Armed Forces who contribute 52% of our wages into AFPS - so a Flt Lt earning £50k gets £26k extra put into the pension pot per year. I think BA have just upped their employer contributions from 9% to 15% but that is still well short of our 52%.
The only way you will earn mega bucks in flying is to go to the Middle East for some tax free salary action - but then that is not for everyone (I politely declined some years ago). They also will get their monies worth out of you.
So, if you are thinking of going down the route of an airline pilot career, the work-life balance isn’t really any rosier than the forces - have a read of the BALPA blog if you don’t believe me:
https://blog.balpa.org/Blog/October-...alance-Pilot-A
As ever, we all have to make the choices that fit our own personal circumstances, but I don’t believe that airline flying is this wonderful Utopia with mega wages. It will be a job with many frustrations like any other.
CPL Clott
Been down the airline route, nearly 25 years, after 12 years RAF. Never regretted it for a moment!
I think your close relative might be being a bit economical with the truth. Here is the current pay scales (Feb 18 and Mar 18):
British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools
Also, for those wanting to be an airline skipper having left the armed forces, it looks like a long-haul captain takes at least 15 years. That is not even a training captain where the mega money is!
People leaving the armed forces as pilots and looking for rock star wages in the airline industry are going to be disappointed. I grant the wages are good but no where near the £200,000 you are hinting at - most make about half that if they are lucky. The link also shows the pension scheme of 15% employer (ie. BA) contribution and 6%, which is 21% total. As others have said the Armed Forces Pension Scheme contributes 51% of the basic armed forces salary into the pot - so a top rate Sqn Ldr on £60,000 would grow their pension pot by £31,000 a year without personal contribution, plus will in future be getting ~£20,000 RRP(F) ‘flying pay’. The package overall is £111,000. For a BA pilot they would be on say £80,000, the company would contribute £12,000 but the individual would need to contribute £4,800 out of their wages - the total pension contribution would be roughly half that of the armed forces one and so to make it equivalent the individual would need to contribute another £15,000 from their wages. So with even the BA allowance package being close to the £20,000 RRP(F), then overall the airline pilot would be at best close to his military colleague.
So that is why I don’t think money is the issue. The issue for the military person is the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ - a general feeling of lack of trust, a loss of pride, a lost feeling of value and an uncertain future if they are rotary or fast jet in that this is generally a young persons game that few want to keep doing in their mid to late forties. That is why military pilots leave for the airlines in my opinion.
I think this article is nearer the truth https://warontherocks.com/2018/03/ai...t-the-culture/
British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools
Also, for those wanting to be an airline skipper having left the armed forces, it looks like a long-haul captain takes at least 15 years. That is not even a training captain where the mega money is!
People leaving the armed forces as pilots and looking for rock star wages in the airline industry are going to be disappointed. I grant the wages are good but no where near the £200,000 you are hinting at - most make about half that if they are lucky. The link also shows the pension scheme of 15% employer (ie. BA) contribution and 6%, which is 21% total. As others have said the Armed Forces Pension Scheme contributes 51% of the basic armed forces salary into the pot - so a top rate Sqn Ldr on £60,000 would grow their pension pot by £31,000 a year without personal contribution, plus will in future be getting ~£20,000 RRP(F) ‘flying pay’. The package overall is £111,000. For a BA pilot they would be on say £80,000, the company would contribute £12,000 but the individual would need to contribute £4,800 out of their wages - the total pension contribution would be roughly half that of the armed forces one and so to make it equivalent the individual would need to contribute another £15,000 from their wages. So with even the BA allowance package being close to the £20,000 RRP(F), then overall the airline pilot would be at best close to his military colleague.
So that is why I don’t think money is the issue. The issue for the military person is the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ - a general feeling of lack of trust, a loss of pride, a lost feeling of value and an uncertain future if they are rotary or fast jet in that this is generally a young persons game that few want to keep doing in their mid to late forties. That is why military pilots leave for the airlines in my opinion.
I think this article is nearer the truth https://warontherocks.com/2018/03/ai...t-the-culture/
From the recruitment paragraph in B word's post-
commuter based skills test - excellent
Is that long-haul or short-haul commuting?
If you are successful you are invited to the next stage which you then go online and book. Day 1: Maths, Verbal reasoning and 2 commuter based skills tests.
Is that long-haul or short-haul commuting?
Crab - brilliant, good spot 
Although I would have thought that extreme ‘commuter skills’ are essential for LHR, LGW, LCY and STN!
But it raises a good point - many of my ex-mil airline mates end up spending some of their time sitting in their car at Motorway Service Stations during rush hour when on standby as their base is too far from their chosen home (normally Lincs/Cambs/Notts) to make the required reporting time. Not exactly great quality of life when doing that!
Although I would have thought that extreme ‘commuter skills’ are essential for LHR, LGW, LCY and STN!
But it raises a good point - many of my ex-mil airline mates end up spending some of their time sitting in their car at Motorway Service Stations during rush hour when on standby as their base is too far from their chosen home (normally Lincs/Cambs/Notts) to make the required reporting time. Not exactly great quality of life when doing that!
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: DAVER
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's interesting hearing both sides of the debate. I left the mob 18 months ago and into a broadly similar civilian flying role. Some of the 'money' reasons for leaving at option point and not waiting for full term:
- A real terms 12% pay cut since 2008
- Reduction and removal of allowances (IA, reductions in mileage allowance, 20% reduction in most subsistence allowance)
- Enforced pension change from AFPS75 to AFPS15. Although the pension is still good, this change in itself costs upward of £100k. Not to mention the RPI to CPI change!
- Housing issues. Housing works if you're married, or you're single. If you want to live with your partner and not be married, it's of little consequence to the package, especially when you are South East based. 'FAM' is unknown and not likely to be better.
The people above adding an arbitrary 51% to the RAF salary to compensate for the pension are living a fallacy. There are very few of us outside that would salary sacrifice 51% to their pension pot; most of the young 'uns are still striving to buy ever-inflating property, which the invisible RAF pension does not help.
Outside of money, stability is a huge issue with the RAF, with no roster or schedule you're effectively on standby 24/7. You can't plan dinner with friends. You can't really go away for the weekend. You're regularly pinged last minute for detachments or last minute trips. Things change...a lot, and often not due to the user, but due to inefficiencies in planning and tasking stages. Posting stability has improved, but there is no guarantee you won't get posted to the other side of the country for 3 years.
After leaving I'm on a comfortable 6 figures (not adding pension or allowances or bonuses), work up to 14 days a month, live in the same area, don't go into work if I'm not flying and don't have to deal with the day-to-day Service annoyances (JPA, Imprests, CCS, SDO, JOD, GPCs, IRT, RSOI).
Sure, I miss seeing my RAF buddies daily, but most realise that the grass IS greener, unless you are one of the few where the RAF really fits (children in private school, married quarter, PA etc, or you've escaped the frontline and work mon-fri). I had an awesome time, met awesome people, but glad I didn't listen to those who have never actually experienced life 'outside', and seem determined to convince people that ever-reducing Ts & Cs and ever-increasing workload is normal (although I'm sure that may be the case for some airlines as well!).
- A real terms 12% pay cut since 2008
- Reduction and removal of allowances (IA, reductions in mileage allowance, 20% reduction in most subsistence allowance)
- Enforced pension change from AFPS75 to AFPS15. Although the pension is still good, this change in itself costs upward of £100k. Not to mention the RPI to CPI change!
- Housing issues. Housing works if you're married, or you're single. If you want to live with your partner and not be married, it's of little consequence to the package, especially when you are South East based. 'FAM' is unknown and not likely to be better.
The people above adding an arbitrary 51% to the RAF salary to compensate for the pension are living a fallacy. There are very few of us outside that would salary sacrifice 51% to their pension pot; most of the young 'uns are still striving to buy ever-inflating property, which the invisible RAF pension does not help.
Outside of money, stability is a huge issue with the RAF, with no roster or schedule you're effectively on standby 24/7. You can't plan dinner with friends. You can't really go away for the weekend. You're regularly pinged last minute for detachments or last minute trips. Things change...a lot, and often not due to the user, but due to inefficiencies in planning and tasking stages. Posting stability has improved, but there is no guarantee you won't get posted to the other side of the country for 3 years.
After leaving I'm on a comfortable 6 figures (not adding pension or allowances or bonuses), work up to 14 days a month, live in the same area, don't go into work if I'm not flying and don't have to deal with the day-to-day Service annoyances (JPA, Imprests, CCS, SDO, JOD, GPCs, IRT, RSOI).
Sure, I miss seeing my RAF buddies daily, but most realise that the grass IS greener, unless you are one of the few where the RAF really fits (children in private school, married quarter, PA etc, or you've escaped the frontline and work mon-fri). I had an awesome time, met awesome people, but glad I didn't listen to those who have never actually experienced life 'outside', and seem determined to convince people that ever-reducing Ts & Cs and ever-increasing workload is normal (although I'm sure that may be the case for some airlines as well!).
The people above adding an arbitrary 51% to the RAF salary to compensate for the pension are living a fallacy. There are very few of us outside that would salary sacrifice 51% to their pension pot; most of the young 'uns are still striving to buy ever-inflating property, which the invisible RAF pension does not help.
The bit you need to read is:
Employer contribution rate payable for the implementation period: 52.4% of pensionable pay for officers and 49.6% for other ranks (equivalent to 50.4% overall)
Also, that roster you talk about is a killer in my humble opinion. Pretty much every time I want to meet up with any of my airline mates it’s “My roster hasn’t come out yet” or “My roster is out and I can’t swap”. Whereas in the mob you can normally do a deal with the programmer to get what you need - you may have to take a bit of pain, like a night in the Q shed, but it works.
Does the 14 days include standby duties or sims? Also, I’m guessing that is long haul so how many nights away? This is a BA Long Haul pilot explaining their schedule on another forum:
Normally the hours target is between 86 and 90 hrs, and BA dont care how that work is done so long as its all covered, so it could be a 9 day Australia (44hrs), 5 day HKG (24hrs) and a 4 day LAX (20hrs) or 5-6 x 15 hr E Coast trips depending on your seniority
There is no typical month, theoretically you could do a months work in 12 days by doing 4 x 3 day LAS, but if you went to LOS/CAI you'd be away 22 days a month. Luckily for all it doesnt work like that so most end up with a fair mixture.
In terms of time off downroute the furthest 24 hrs LAS and shortest 48 is SFO, nowhere is more than 48 except where frequency or schedule demands it.
There is no typical month, theoretically you could do a months work in 12 days by doing 4 x 3 day LAS, but if you went to LOS/CAI you'd be away 22 days a month. Luckily for all it doesnt work like that so most end up with a fair mixture.
In terms of time off downroute the furthest 24 hrs LAS and shortest 48 is SFO, nowhere is more than 48 except where frequency or schedule demands it.
I think some of us approach it from the standpoint of a FJ pilot and some from that of an ME pilot. Those are two very different starting points and will lead to very different perceptions of what is good and what is bad.
That is why I don’t pretend to know anything outside of the FJ world. Even then, I am nowadays constrained further into the FJ QFI world.
I’m sure you’re both right and both wrong all at the same time. It’s all relative.
BV
That is why I don’t pretend to know anything outside of the FJ world. Even then, I am nowadays constrained further into the FJ QFI world.
I’m sure you’re both right and both wrong all at the same time. It’s all relative.
BV
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: over the rainbow
Age: 75
Posts: 562
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the US reservists still play a vital role in the US Air Force.
The justification for scrapping the RAF Aux Air Squadrons in 1957 was that with the Hunter replacing the Vampire and Meteor, it would be too difficult to convert reservists to swept wing advanced jets.
Two US Air National Guard Wings are to be equipped with the Lockheed Martin F-35.
The justification for scrapping the RAF Aux Air Squadrons in 1957 was that with the Hunter replacing the Vampire and Meteor, it would be too difficult to convert reservists to swept wing advanced jets.
Two US Air National Guard Wings are to be equipped with the Lockheed Martin F-35.
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: DAVER
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No fallacy. Have a read here: https://assets.publishing.service.go...4_Feb_2015.pdf
The bit you need to read is:
So it’s not made up, it’s a fact.
Also, that roster you talk about is a killer in my humble opinion. Pretty much every time I want to meet up with any of my airline mates it’s “My roster hasn’t come out yet” or “My roster is out and I can’t swap”. Whereas in the mob you can normally do a deal with the programmer to get what you need - you may have to take a bit of pain, like a night in the Q shed, but it works.
Does the 14 days include standby duties or sims? Also, I’m guessing that is long haul so how many nights away? This is a BA Long Haul pilot explaining their schedule on another forum:
To me that doesn’t sound like the grass is greener at all?
The bit you need to read is:
So it’s not made up, it’s a fact.
Also, that roster you talk about is a killer in my humble opinion. Pretty much every time I want to meet up with any of my airline mates it’s “My roster hasn’t come out yet” or “My roster is out and I can’t swap”. Whereas in the mob you can normally do a deal with the programmer to get what you need - you may have to take a bit of pain, like a night in the Q shed, but it works.
Does the 14 days include standby duties or sims? Also, I’m guessing that is long haul so how many nights away? This is a BA Long Haul pilot explaining their schedule on another forum:
To me that doesn’t sound like the grass is greener at all?
Looks like you’re a/was aFJ driver, so probably very different programming wise. One day’s notice of a 6 week detachment or a week’s trip is not uncommon for many others in Rotary/ME world.
If the RAF works for you, great, but I think the younger generation, for reasons mentioned above, feel a lack of loyalty to them by the Service and will vote with their feet accordingly.
Would it be possible to clarify the 51% into the pension bit? Is it not a FS scheme? Each year buys a fraction of your FS?
If they are paying 51% of your salary into a pension pot as a lump sump, I would suggest that is exceeding generous and you would be hard pushed to match that in any company outside of the RAF.
If they are paying 51% of your salary into a pension pot as a lump sump, I would suggest that is exceeding generous and you would be hard pushed to match that in any company outside of the RAF.
Join Date: May 2015
Location: England
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a pilot in the sift for 2 months now I would happily fill one of the 800 spaces!
Apparently only taking a handful of pilots on each IOT at the moment... one presumes down to the training backlog.
Apparently only taking a handful of pilots on each IOT at the moment... one presumes down to the training backlog.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Green and pleasant land
Posts: 658
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Indeed.
99% of the UK population stay in the same location for their entire careers,
can hand in their notice if they are fed up with the job,
they can tell their boss his leadership style is crap,
they have tenants rights,
Given the correct tools to do the job,
are compensated for nights away,
have houses fit to live in,
can have a private life,
can keep work and home life 100% separate,
have hotels paid for by their company up-front,
can refuse to do anything they are asked to do,
can plan their life more than a month in advance,
can choose to live where they want, are trusted to wipe their own backside,
Have a credit rating that doesnt have a plethora of addresses on it,
Dont have to move house every 2 yrs,
are not working 2 jobs but getting paid for one,
are not sent on bollocks courses,
can travel anywhere in the world without telling an adult,
can make decisions for themselves,
can provide their children a stable home life,
2 schools for their children’s entire education,
attend every wedding/birthday/funeral,
Never be asked to take a life,
and perhaps most of all never get shot at or put directly in harms way at the whim of a politician....
99% of the UK population stay in the same location for their entire careers,
can hand in their notice if they are fed up with the job,
they can tell their boss his leadership style is crap,
they have tenants rights,
Given the correct tools to do the job,
are compensated for nights away,
have houses fit to live in,
can have a private life,
can keep work and home life 100% separate,
have hotels paid for by their company up-front,
can refuse to do anything they are asked to do,
can plan their life more than a month in advance,
can choose to live where they want, are trusted to wipe their own backside,
Have a credit rating that doesnt have a plethora of addresses on it,
Dont have to move house every 2 yrs,
are not working 2 jobs but getting paid for one,
are not sent on bollocks courses,
can travel anywhere in the world without telling an adult,
can make decisions for themselves,
can provide their children a stable home life,
2 schools for their children’s entire education,
attend every wedding/birthday/funeral,
Never be asked to take a life,
and perhaps most of all never get shot at or put directly in harms way at the whim of a politician....
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think some of us approach it from the standpoint of a FJ pilot and some from that of an ME pilot. Those are two very different starting points and will lead to very different perceptions of what is good and what is bad.
That is why I don’t pretend to know anything outside of the FJ world. Even then, I am nowadays constrained further into the FJ QFI world.
I’m sure you’re both right and both wrong all at the same time. It’s all relative.
BV
That is why I don’t pretend to know anything outside of the FJ world. Even then, I am nowadays constrained further into the FJ QFI world.
I’m sure you’re both right and both wrong all at the same time. It’s all relative.
BV
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think your close relative might be being a bit economical with the truth. Here is the current pay scales (Feb 18 and Mar 18):
British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools
Also, for those wanting to be an airline skipper having left the armed forces, it looks like a long-haul captain takes at least 15 years. That is not even a training captain where the mega money is!
People leaving the armed forces as pilots and looking for rock star wages in the airline industry are going to be disappointed. I grant the wages are good but no where near the £200,000 you are hinting at - most make about half that if they are lucky. The link also shows the pension scheme of 15% employer (ie. BA) contribution and 6%, which is 21% total. As others have said the Armed Forces Pension Scheme contributes 51% of the basic armed forces salary into the pot - so a top rate Sqn Ldr on £60,000 would grow their pension pot by £31,000 a year without personal contribution, plus will in future be getting ~£20,000 RRP(F) ‘flying pay’. The package overall is £111,000. For a BA pilot they would be on say £80,000, the company would contribute £12,000 but the individual would need to contribute £4,800 out of their wages - the total pension contribution would be roughly half that of the armed forces one and so to make it equivalent the individual would need to contribute another £15,000 from their wages. So with even the BA allowance package being close to the £20,000 RRP(F), then overall the airline pilot would be at best close to his military colleague.
So that is why I don’t think money is the issue. The issue for the military person is the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ - a general feeling of lack of trust, a loss of pride, a lost feeling of value and an uncertain future if they are rotary or fast jet in that this is generally a young persons game that few want to keep doing in their mid to late forties. That is why military pilots leave for the airlines in my opinion.
I think this article is nearer the truth https://warontherocks.com/2018/03/ai...t-the-culture/
British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools
Also, for those wanting to be an airline skipper having left the armed forces, it looks like a long-haul captain takes at least 15 years. That is not even a training captain where the mega money is!
People leaving the armed forces as pilots and looking for rock star wages in the airline industry are going to be disappointed. I grant the wages are good but no where near the £200,000 you are hinting at - most make about half that if they are lucky. The link also shows the pension scheme of 15% employer (ie. BA) contribution and 6%, which is 21% total. As others have said the Armed Forces Pension Scheme contributes 51% of the basic armed forces salary into the pot - so a top rate Sqn Ldr on £60,000 would grow their pension pot by £31,000 a year without personal contribution, plus will in future be getting ~£20,000 RRP(F) ‘flying pay’. The package overall is £111,000. For a BA pilot they would be on say £80,000, the company would contribute £12,000 but the individual would need to contribute £4,800 out of their wages - the total pension contribution would be roughly half that of the armed forces one and so to make it equivalent the individual would need to contribute another £15,000 from their wages. So with even the BA allowance package being close to the £20,000 RRP(F), then overall the airline pilot would be at best close to his military colleague.
So that is why I don’t think money is the issue. The issue for the military person is the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ - a general feeling of lack of trust, a loss of pride, a lost feeling of value and an uncertain future if they are rotary or fast jet in that this is generally a young persons game that few want to keep doing in their mid to late forties. That is why military pilots leave for the airlines in my opinion.
I think this article is nearer the truth https://warontherocks.com/2018/03/ai...t-the-culture/
Some of you guys just don’t get it, there is a whole, huge, world outside the RAF with a WAY better lifestyle!
My close relative is a long haul training captain who made OVER 200k according to his P60!
So the long haul senior captain on 178K, as in your scale, plus 20 % training looks good to me!
Frankly as a former line training Captain myself, my extra pay for training ( and as a ex RAF QFI,, not FJ, just JP, ) was money for old rope! Very satisfying and rewarding though, to help get our younger, keener guys prepare for command.
If you have not experienced the outside world, airline flying PLUS the chance to run your own business and determine your OWN lifesty and future, dont knock it !
I think your close relative might be being a bit economical with the truth. Here is the current pay scales (Feb 18 and Mar 18):
British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools
Also, for those wanting to be an airline skipper having left the armed forces, it looks like a long-haul captain takes at least 15 years. That is not even a training captain where the mega money is!
People leaving the armed forces as pilots and looking for rock star wages in the airline industry are going to be disappointed. I grant the wages are good but no where near the £200,000 you are hinting at - most make about half that if they are lucky. The link also shows the pension scheme of 15% employer (ie. BA) contribution and 6%, which is 21% total. As others have said the Armed Forces Pension Scheme contributes 51% of the basic armed forces salary into the pot - so a top rate Sqn Ldr on £60,000 would grow their pension pot by £31,000 a year without personal contribution, plus will in future be getting ~£20,000 RRP(F) ‘flying pay’. The package overall is £111,000. For a BA pilot they would be on say £80,000, the company would contribute £12,000 but the individual would need to contribute £4,800 out of their wages - the total pension contribution would be roughly half that of the armed forces one and so to make it equivalent the individual would need to contribute another £15,000 from their wages. So with even the BA allowance package being close to the £20,000 RRP(F), then overall the airline pilot would be at best close to his military colleague.
So that is why I don’t think money is the issue. The issue for the military person is the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ - a general feeling of lack of trust, a loss of pride, a lost feeling of value and an uncertain future if they are rotary or fast jet in that this is generally a young persons game that few want to keep doing in their mid to late forties. That is why military pilots leave for the airlines in my opinion.
I think this article is nearer the truth https://warontherocks.com/2018/03/ai...t-the-culture/
British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools
Also, for those wanting to be an airline skipper having left the armed forces, it looks like a long-haul captain takes at least 15 years. That is not even a training captain where the mega money is!
People leaving the armed forces as pilots and looking for rock star wages in the airline industry are going to be disappointed. I grant the wages are good but no where near the £200,000 you are hinting at - most make about half that if they are lucky. The link also shows the pension scheme of 15% employer (ie. BA) contribution and 6%, which is 21% total. As others have said the Armed Forces Pension Scheme contributes 51% of the basic armed forces salary into the pot - so a top rate Sqn Ldr on £60,000 would grow their pension pot by £31,000 a year without personal contribution, plus will in future be getting ~£20,000 RRP(F) ‘flying pay’. The package overall is £111,000. For a BA pilot they would be on say £80,000, the company would contribute £12,000 but the individual would need to contribute £4,800 out of their wages - the total pension contribution would be roughly half that of the armed forces one and so to make it equivalent the individual would need to contribute another £15,000 from their wages. So with even the BA allowance package being close to the £20,000 RRP(F), then overall the airline pilot would be at best close to his military colleague.
So that is why I don’t think money is the issue. The issue for the military person is the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ - a general feeling of lack of trust, a loss of pride, a lost feeling of value and an uncertain future if they are rotary or fast jet in that this is generally a young persons game that few want to keep doing in their mid to late forties. That is why military pilots leave for the airlines in my opinion.
I think this article is nearer the truth https://warontherocks.com/2018/03/ai...t-the-culture/
Some of you guys just don’t get it, there is a whole, huge, world outside the RAF with a WAY better lifestyle!
My close relative is a long haul training captain who made OVER 200k according to his P60!
So the long haul senior captain on 178K, as in your scale, plus 20 % training looks good to me!
Frankly as a former line training Captain myself, my extra pay for training ( and as a ex RAF QFI,, not FJ, just JP, ) was money for old rope! Very satisfying and rewarding though, to help get our younger, keener guys prepare for command.
If you have not experienced the outside world, airline flying PLUS the chance to run your own business and determine your OWN lifestle and determine your OWN future, YOURSELF, dont knock it !
SORRY, seems it is a double, uneditable, double post!
Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 22nd Apr 2018 at 20:10.
Not trying to knock it but I am trying to add a bit of balance. For some it works in the RAF and for some it doesn’t, the same for the airlines, some love it and some don’t having jumped ship. I just fear that some of our people jump at it with their eyes wide shut and so that’s why it’s important to lay all of the facts out in the open - warts and all for both sides. There must be something in it given the number of aircrew I hear that are asking to rejoin in recent months.
comme ci comme ca
comme ci comme ca
