RAF Air Traffickers Are Top Notch
Indeed. I was not aware of these changes. I did say 'in my time' and clearly things have changed in Trade Group 9. I've been retired from flying for 16 years now and quite frankly, now I don't give a rats arse.
ps. Changes in TG9? It needed a lot of changes.
pps. It was always a request from fleet management , always short haul, and I was never asked anyway. On reflection, I think I would have always denied a 'famil' jump seat. In 35 minutes going to CDG ( or BRU or MAN for example) there was very little time to talk to anyone else (on the flight deck) except the F/O.
ps. Changes in TG9? It needed a lot of changes.
pps. It was always a request from fleet management , always short haul, and I was never asked anyway. On reflection, I think I would have always denied a 'famil' jump seat. In 35 minutes going to CDG ( or BRU or MAN for example) there was very little time to talk to anyone else (on the flight deck) except the F/O.
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I have no idea if Steve Coombes was direct entry or a former assistant, but either way, he should have sufficient GSK to understand that such a letter is not appropriate.
I don't think it fair to compare the direct entry Pilot Officer doing JATCC with a direct entry Sgt going there, as the IOT element is the best part of a year before getting to Shawbury.
A huge part of being a Sgt controller is being a leader, as well as being a controller. The SNCO bit is not just a badge, and perhaps more emphasis needs to be placed on "Sgt qualities" when the selection for JATCC is being made.
I don't think it fair to compare the direct entry Pilot Officer doing JATCC with a direct entry Sgt going there, as the IOT element is the best part of a year before getting to Shawbury.
A huge part of being a Sgt controller is being a leader, as well as being a controller. The SNCO bit is not just a badge, and perhaps more emphasis needs to be placed on "Sgt qualities" when the selection for JATCC is being made.
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I say lay off this guy now.
He was a bit of a tool doing what he did but we've all done things we'd rather misremember.
Next discussion....
He was a bit of a tool doing what he did but we've all done things we'd rather misremember.
Next discussion....
Last edited by SFCC; 17th Apr 2018 at 12:34. Reason: Spalling
Bit shoddy that he has been named IMO. Banter and opinion about the whys and wherefores is one thing... His missus must be cringeing at also being outed.
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I do find it rather strange that they took to obliterating his Christian name but left his surname in view, thus meaning in no uncertain terms he would be identified, there cannot be many ATC in the RAF with that surname these days.
I also find it rather disturbing that they took it upon themselves to publish what was probably a confidential letter between himself and the crew, surely any such correspondence between passengers and crew should be dealt with by the company and not a member of the crew in making it so public.. I do hope that crew member is disciplined as he / she may have destroyed this persons career, if I was the Sgt involved I would be writing to the Company requesting the matter be dealt with as I am sure some of their company rules have probably been breached..
You now all seem intent on ridiculing him and his family, but also his qualifications to be in the job, and that is bad form, I think you will find he has worked his way up from being an assistant to a controller in about 10 years, and is not a direct entry.
I do wonder if the outcome would have been the same if an RAF doctor or paramedic had written the letter, would we still be having this conversation.
.
I also find it rather disturbing that they took it upon themselves to publish what was probably a confidential letter between himself and the crew, surely any such correspondence between passengers and crew should be dealt with by the company and not a member of the crew in making it so public.. I do hope that crew member is disciplined as he / she may have destroyed this persons career, if I was the Sgt involved I would be writing to the Company requesting the matter be dealt with as I am sure some of their company rules have probably been breached..
You now all seem intent on ridiculing him and his family, but also his qualifications to be in the job, and that is bad form, I think you will find he has worked his way up from being an assistant to a controller in about 10 years, and is not a direct entry.
I do wonder if the outcome would have been the same if an RAF doctor or paramedic had written the letter, would we still be having this conversation.
.
Last edited by NutLoose; 17th Apr 2018 at 13:48.
Indeed. I was not aware of these changes. I did say 'in my time' and clearly things have changed in Trade Group 9. I've been retired from flying for 16 years now and quite frankly, now I don't give a rats arse.
ps. Changes in TG9? It needed a lot of changes.
pps. It was always a request from fleet management , always short haul, and I was never asked anyway. On reflection, I think I would have always denied a 'famil' jump seat. In 35 minutes going to CDG ( or BRU or MAN for example) there was very little time to talk to anyone else (on the flight deck) except the F/O.
ps. Changes in TG9? It needed a lot of changes.
pps. It was always a request from fleet management , always short haul, and I was never asked anyway. On reflection, I think I would have always denied a 'famil' jump seat. In 35 minutes going to CDG ( or BRU or MAN for example) there was very little time to talk to anyone else (on the flight deck) except the F/O.
Usually with BA, you were invited to join the crew at crew reporting, but still had to travel to the aircraft with other pax as you didn't have the necessary airside pass(es).
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I have no idea if Steve Coombes was direct entry or a former assistant, but either way, he should have sufficient GSK to understand that such a letter is not appropriate.
I don't think it fair to compare the direct entry Pilot Officer doing JATCC with a direct entry Sgt going there, as the IOT element is the best part of a year before getting to Shawbury.
A huge part of being a Sgt controller is being a leader, as well as being a controller. The SNCO bit is not just a badge, and perhaps more emphasis needs to be placed on "Sgt qualities" when the selection for JATCC is being made.
I don't think it fair to compare the direct entry Pilot Officer doing JATCC with a direct entry Sgt going there, as the IOT element is the best part of a year before getting to Shawbury.
A huge part of being a Sgt controller is being a leader, as well as being a controller. The SNCO bit is not just a badge, and perhaps more emphasis needs to be placed on "Sgt qualities" when the selection for JATCC is being made.
Having done IOT and AATS I can say without a shadow of doubt AATS was more difficult, made more robust servicemen and had real leadership and teamwork drilled into you. IOT was a complete waste of time and crammed a 4 month course into 9 months....
So the DE airman aircrew bit is now 21 weeks (Halton and Cranwell) vs 12 weeks (Swinderby and Finningley) back in the last century. And the walking-talking-not-eating-yer-peas-with-yer-knife course is 8 weeks longer too! Blimey!
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This conversation should not be "just" about Steve Coombes, but about whether the system failed him down, of if he managed to furky tup all alone.
He has clearly (from what I hear from within TG9) learned his lesson, but has the system?
He has clearly (from what I hear from within TG9) learned his lesson, but has the system?
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HE IS NOT DIRECT ENTRY,
reread my post 46
reread my post 46
I do find it rather strange that they took to obliterating his Christian name but left his surname in view, thus meaning in no uncertain terms he would be identified, there cannot be many ATC in the RAF with that surname these days.
I also find it rather disturbing that they took it upon themselves to publish what was probably a confidential letter between himself and the crew, surely any such correspondence between passengers and crew should be dealt with by the company and not a member of the crew in making it so public.. I do hope that crew member is disciplined as he / she may have destroyed this persons career, if I was the Sgt involved I would be writing to the Company requesting the matter be dealt with as I am sure some of their company rules have probably been breached..
You now all seem intent on ridiculing him and his family, but also his qualifications to be in the job, and that is bad form, I think you will find he has worked his way up from being an assistant to a controller in about 10 years, and is not a direct entry.
I do wonder if the outcome would have been the same if an RAF doctor or paramedic had written the letter, would we still be having this conversation.
.
I also find it rather disturbing that they took it upon themselves to publish what was probably a confidential letter between himself and the crew, surely any such correspondence between passengers and crew should be dealt with by the company and not a member of the crew in making it so public.. I do hope that crew member is disciplined as he / she may have destroyed this persons career, if I was the Sgt involved I would be writing to the Company requesting the matter be dealt with as I am sure some of their company rules have probably been breached..
You now all seem intent on ridiculing him and his family, but also his qualifications to be in the job, and that is bad form, I think you will find he has worked his way up from being an assistant to a controller in about 10 years, and is not a direct entry.
I do wonder if the outcome would have been the same if an RAF doctor or paramedic had written the letter, would we still be having this conversation.
.
I wish him well for the future. If he wishes to take this further then I would advise against it; the root of it all is the letter HE wrote, on headed paper that HE should not have been using for personal gain. Granted, the letter publisher should not have made it public but he/she would not have been able to do so if it had not been written in the first place.
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SATCO's whipping boy, I defer to your experience, but I would add,
I would refer to post 47, civilian ATC were issued with letters to hand out to crews, indeed they were encouraged and had or used to have a partial PPL included in their course to allow them to experience the other side of the fence and to better understand the implications of their instructions, knowledge can be a life saver.
Nowhere in this thread has anyone thought that he may have actually asked permission, had been granted it, or encouraged to present such a note to the crew, he has simply has been shamefully hung drawn and quartered by the blinkered baying mob.
A quick search of the web will give his experience, working up through the ranks etc, and good for him, he does not deserve this garbage.
I would refer to post 47, civilian ATC were issued with letters to hand out to crews, indeed they were encouraged and had or used to have a partial PPL included in their course to allow them to experience the other side of the fence and to better understand the implications of their instructions, knowledge can be a life saver.
Nowhere in this thread has anyone thought that he may have actually asked permission, had been granted it, or encouraged to present such a note to the crew, he has simply has been shamefully hung drawn and quartered by the blinkered baying mob.
A quick search of the web will give his experience, working up through the ranks etc, and good for him, he does not deserve this garbage.
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From what I could see of its trip on social media it originally started with civi pilots having a laugh at the wording and debating what an ATCO could do that was useful while airborne. Of course including their ATCO mates.
It then crossed via friends still serving back to the Mil side of things which is where it got nasty. Then it appear on social FB groups and exploded.
The original didn't have any black lines on it.
The publishing of it would not have gone down well with a lot of crew as there is usually shall we say guidance about passenger information which we may come into possession of. Basically you don't do it. Its usually focused around medical issues in flight and deportees.
On the 25th of May a thing called GDPR comes into force. Now would putting that letter on facebook be considered a breach?
I am more concerned about the chaps mental health. He is not the first and won't be the last to chance his arm for an upgrade. These days though most pilots can't even upgrade there family's never mind strangers.
It then crossed via friends still serving back to the Mil side of things which is where it got nasty. Then it appear on social FB groups and exploded.
The original didn't have any black lines on it.
The publishing of it would not have gone down well with a lot of crew as there is usually shall we say guidance about passenger information which we may come into possession of. Basically you don't do it. Its usually focused around medical issues in flight and deportees.
On the 25th of May a thing called GDPR comes into force. Now would putting that letter on facebook be considered a breach?
I am more concerned about the chaps mental health. He is not the first and won't be the last to chance his arm for an upgrade. These days though most pilots can't even upgrade there family's never mind strangers.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
There was a similar public pilloring about 12 years ago or more and by coincidence also involving an ATCO. In that case the individual was not outed on Pprune at least but certainly blew his pseudonym. He was at Nav School and was chopped on his final navigation exercise.
His error was a public rant on Pprune overlooking that staff read Pprune too.
His error was a public rant on Pprune overlooking that staff read Pprune too.
Agree with Tescoapp. Although amusing at first I’d now be more concerned for the poor chap himself. Eejit yes but the joke is now over. Move on, I’m sure he now recognises his mistake and many of us have made similarly poor judgements and decisions in the past, just they might not have been so publicly available. I’m not sure how my mental health might cope if I was so treated......
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It's out there, it's not going to be me that puts it on here.
I don't know for a fact but I am pretty sure the airline knows about it.
Broadcasting it will only escalate things. If the chap in question wants that, he can do it himself.
I don't know for a fact but I am pretty sure the airline knows about it.
Broadcasting it will only escalate things. If the chap in question wants that, he can do it himself.
On one Fam Flight, the captain was informed that there was a lady passenger feeling ill so had been put on oxygen; as we were near top of descent, the Captain asked me (civil ATCO) to go back and check on her.
Having come to this thread rather late, I recall that this type and format of letter was recommended by the Guild of Air Traffic Controllers (GATCO) to be given to the crew when you were on a trip booked through their travel scheme. I vaguely recall (when I worked with SATCO's Whipping Boy) that I wrote one of those letters but baulked at using it when my common sense caption illuminated.
SATCO's whipping boy, I defer to your experience, but I would add,
I would refer to post 47, civilian ATC were issued with letters to hand out to crews, indeed they were encouraged and had or used to have a partial PPL included in their course to allow them to experience the other side of the fence and to better understand the implications of their instructions, knowledge can be a life saver.
I would refer to post 47, civilian ATC were issued with letters to hand out to crews, indeed they were encouraged and had or used to have a partial PPL included in their course to allow them to experience the other side of the fence and to better understand the implications of their instructions, knowledge can be a life saver.