Factoring Log Book for Taxi Time
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 8
Factoring Log Book for Taxi Time
Hi, I assume this is a common thread that rears it’s head from time to time but has anyone got any official guidance for how much taxi time we can add to our military hours? I’m a Multi-Engine guy so will have hundreds of hours not logged during taxiing. Thanks!
(Truth be told, if there’s nothing official I’ll probably just add 10/ 15 minutes per sortie anyway and explain it if I have to!)
(Truth be told, if there’s nothing official I’ll probably just add 10/ 15 minutes per sortie anyway and explain it if I have to!)
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 575
Speaking as an ex-military civvy, how did people ever come up with logging chock-to-chock in their logbooks? It's not a very accurate way to record 'flying' time!
I understand the need to record engine time, but what is the relevance of chock-to-chock on a 30min transit with, say, a long hold at the departure airfield. You could end up with over an hour in the logbook!
I understand the need to record engine time, but what is the relevance of chock-to-chock on a 30min transit with, say, a long hold at the departure airfield. You could end up with over an hour in the logbook!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 2,950
Originally Posted by H Peacock
Speaking as an ex-military civvy, how did people ever come up with logging chock-to-chock in their logbooks?
From FAA FAR Part 1:
Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retriev....1#se14.1.1_11
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Southampton
Posts: 792
Originally Posted by jayteeto
You pay for Hobbs which is start to stop. Not good paying for an hour and logging 45 minutes
Definitely the Hobbs!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by Arfur Dent
Chips - Just add 10 minutes per sortie and explain if you need to. I did exactly that and nobody noticed/cared/asked.
Good Luck!
Good Luck!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Carlisle
Age: 68
Posts: 48
If it is of any interest in this discussion, the now-superseded LASORS 2008 Section A Annex B included the following:
Recording of Military Flying Times – Taxi-time allowances
It is normal practice for pilots in civil aviation to record their flying hours on a “chock-to-chock” basis. However, UK military flight crew are required only to record “airborne” time - this practice being linked to Service engineering procedures and is unlikely to change.
The CAA has always been aware of this discrepancy, and of the fact that it led to Service pilots being slightly disadvantaged compared to their civilian colleagues when they left the Services.
In recognition of this, the CAA worked with the MOD (Training Policy Unit) to devise a system that would give some credit for military taxi times.
The system that was decided upon was the taxi-assessment system. The Service pilot adds a taxitime allowance (see table 1 below) to each sector flown as entered in his Service logbook - the taxi-time allowance being dependant on the type of sortie flown by the pilot. The taxi-time allowances built up throughout a career are then entered into a table (see table 2 below) to arrive at a total for their career. Prior to leaving the Services this table should be placed in the pilot’s logbook and signed by his last Squadron Commander. Please note that this arrangement cannot be used for CAA licence issue purposes.
It should be emphasised that when canvassed, most UK airlines said they were aware of the discrepancy between the Service and CAA method of recording flying hours, and took this into account in the recruitment process. Where this is the case, any hours calculated by the individual Service pilot in excess of 75 hours should be
taken into account by the individual airline.
The taxi-time allowance that the CAA is prepared to recognise for licence issue purposes is 5% of the total military “airborne” hours up to a maximum credit of 75 hours for ATPL(A) issue and 10 hours for CPL(A) issue. This corresponds to the average amount of taxi hours credited for civil pilots under the “chock to chock” system. When the Service pilot submits his application for licence issue, this taxi-time allowance (where required to meet minimum experience requirements) may be added to the recorded military airborne hours and the new total declared on the application form. Effectively it will mean that a military pilot will be required, inter alia, to acquire 1425 hours of military “airborne” flight time for ATPL(A) issue and 190.5 hours for CPL(A) issue. Note: this allowance cannot be used to satisfy the eligibility requirements for any of the QSP licence accreditation schemes detailed elsewhere in this publication.
Table 1
Taxi Allowance Times
Fixed-Wing Training Aircraft 10 mins
Fast Jets 10 mins
Multi-engine Transport Aircraft 15 mins
Display Flying 5 mins
Wheeled Helicopter - Airfield Operations 5 mins
- Field Operations Nil
Skidded Helicopters Nil
Aircraft Carrier Operations Nil
Note that Table 2 contains the following column headings:
Aircraft Type, Sorties Flown, Taxi Allowance, Total
In this way the "conversion" from military to civilian hours was by adding an overall taxi figure rather than by adjusting each individual flight time.
Recording of Military Flying Times – Taxi-time allowances
It is normal practice for pilots in civil aviation to record their flying hours on a “chock-to-chock” basis. However, UK military flight crew are required only to record “airborne” time - this practice being linked to Service engineering procedures and is unlikely to change.
The CAA has always been aware of this discrepancy, and of the fact that it led to Service pilots being slightly disadvantaged compared to their civilian colleagues when they left the Services.
In recognition of this, the CAA worked with the MOD (Training Policy Unit) to devise a system that would give some credit for military taxi times.
The system that was decided upon was the taxi-assessment system. The Service pilot adds a taxitime allowance (see table 1 below) to each sector flown as entered in his Service logbook - the taxi-time allowance being dependant on the type of sortie flown by the pilot. The taxi-time allowances built up throughout a career are then entered into a table (see table 2 below) to arrive at a total for their career. Prior to leaving the Services this table should be placed in the pilot’s logbook and signed by his last Squadron Commander. Please note that this arrangement cannot be used for CAA licence issue purposes.
It should be emphasised that when canvassed, most UK airlines said they were aware of the discrepancy between the Service and CAA method of recording flying hours, and took this into account in the recruitment process. Where this is the case, any hours calculated by the individual Service pilot in excess of 75 hours should be
taken into account by the individual airline.
The taxi-time allowance that the CAA is prepared to recognise for licence issue purposes is 5% of the total military “airborne” hours up to a maximum credit of 75 hours for ATPL(A) issue and 10 hours for CPL(A) issue. This corresponds to the average amount of taxi hours credited for civil pilots under the “chock to chock” system. When the Service pilot submits his application for licence issue, this taxi-time allowance (where required to meet minimum experience requirements) may be added to the recorded military airborne hours and the new total declared on the application form. Effectively it will mean that a military pilot will be required, inter alia, to acquire 1425 hours of military “airborne” flight time for ATPL(A) issue and 190.5 hours for CPL(A) issue. Note: this allowance cannot be used to satisfy the eligibility requirements for any of the QSP licence accreditation schemes detailed elsewhere in this publication.
Table 1
Taxi Allowance Times
Fixed-Wing Training Aircraft 10 mins
Fast Jets 10 mins
Multi-engine Transport Aircraft 15 mins
Display Flying 5 mins
Wheeled Helicopter - Airfield Operations 5 mins
- Field Operations Nil
Skidded Helicopters Nil
Aircraft Carrier Operations Nil
Note that Table 2 contains the following column headings:
Aircraft Type, Sorties Flown, Taxi Allowance, Total
In this way the "conversion" from military to civilian hours was by adding an overall taxi figure rather than by adjusting each individual flight time.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 2,092
It’s interesting that the rules effectively say a maximum of 75 hours may be attributable to taxy time.
As a FJ guy my 3300 hours equates to about 3000 flights (I checked and yes I know that’s sad!) which would give me about 500 extra hours. How many flights would the equivalent hours be in a multi engine environment?
I’m not stirring and have no vested interest, since I have no intention of ever completing an ATPL, I’m just curious.
BV
As a FJ guy my 3300 hours equates to about 3000 flights (I checked and yes I know that’s sad!) which would give me about 500 extra hours. How many flights would the equivalent hours be in a multi engine environment?
I’m not stirring and have no vested interest, since I have no intention of ever completing an ATPL, I’m just curious.
BV
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,148
1. Anything written 10 years ago in LASORS is no longer valid.
2. The ONLY way to gain credit for chock-to-chock time is to.....
KEEP 2 LOGBOOKS!!!.
One military, with sortie details logged under military requirements and the other civil, with flight time logged in accordance with civil practices.
Not very difficult, really.
Merely adding 10 min to each flight without any evidence would be quite risky - you would in any case be required to submit all personal flying logbooks for licence issue.
'Parker Pen' time has caught out certain military pilots in the past, so unless you do as I've recommended for years now and keep 2 logbooks, you could find yourself in the poo if you pad out your military time without any associated log book entries.
2. The ONLY way to gain credit for chock-to-chock time is to.....
KEEP 2 LOGBOOKS!!!.
One military, with sortie details logged under military requirements and the other civil, with flight time logged in accordance with civil practices.
Not very difficult, really.
Merely adding 10 min to each flight without any evidence would be quite risky - you would in any case be required to submit all personal flying logbooks for licence issue.
'Parker Pen' time has caught out certain military pilots in the past, so unless you do as I've recommended for years now and keep 2 logbooks, you could find yourself in the poo if you pad out your military time without any associated log book entries.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
Posts: 1,492
Often wondered why there is this discrepancy. I log “in command” time from brakes to brakes purely from the point of view that if I was unfortunate enough to bend it on the taxi out who are they going to hang? Or we get to the hold and go tech before getting airborne. From the moment I move I am responsible therefore.... just sayin’
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South East of Penge
Age: 72
Posts: 1,690
Beags advocates common sense.
When transferring my (relatively few) military hours to my civil log book I queried this years ago.
I got some patronising CAA Johnnie telling me I couldn't do it !
I did.
No questions were then ever asked.
When transferring my (relatively few) military hours to my civil log book I queried this years ago.
I got some patronising CAA Johnnie telling me I couldn't do it !
I did.
No questions were then ever asked.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: South East.
Posts: 835
Originally Posted by Haraka
CAA Johnnie .
Was there ever one of them that knew anything about aviation or stayed long enough to find out ?
The whole CAA licencing situation is a farce and has been for at least fifteen years. Once upon a time a professional licence was regarded with such esteem one could use it as a passport !
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bed
Posts: 264
Any military cv read by the right person in an airline, a few hours here or there doesn’t matter too much as it’s understood what your competency and experience is...I know I used to select candidates :-)
But don’t lie on the application....that’s defo a no-no!
But don’t lie on the application....that’s defo a no-no!
