France and Germany to push ahead with new joint MPA
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@keesje: We still use them the same way. Now, I am no expert in Naval matters, but according to what I heard from the Nordholz guys, the old way does not seem to cut it anymore. It may be acceptable for counter-piracy missions and the like, but less so in a peer-to-peer scenario.
My understanding is the Bundesmarine has 8 P-3s and the Aeronavale 18 modernised ATL-2s (the 2012 upgrade was aimed at allowing an intended OSD c.2032). (Don't know where l'Aero's Falcons fit in to all this.) If the UK and Italy are any guide the replacements will be in much smaller numbers; so its hard to see anything other than off the shelf with, perhaps, some home grown mission equipment.
In 2017 eight NATO members (including France, Germany, Canada, Poland, Italy, Spain, Turkey and Greece) agreed to cooperate on “multinational maritime multi-mission aircraft capabilities”. Don't know if this initiative is still current. As I mentioned of the other thread Turkey and Italy both have ATR-72 based MPAs, Portugal, Spain and Canada operate CN-295s though only the first as MPAs. I also presume Spain's P-3As and ex RNoAF P3-Ms haven't got a long future.
According to an April 2019 article in Jane's Defence Weekly, Boeing was pushing the P-8 to various groups of NATO countries as a temporary stop gap "until the alliance secures its own maritime capabilities by 2035". Methinks, "until 2035 my ar$3 !"
In 2017 eight NATO members (including France, Germany, Canada, Poland, Italy, Spain, Turkey and Greece) agreed to cooperate on “multinational maritime multi-mission aircraft capabilities”. Don't know if this initiative is still current. As I mentioned of the other thread Turkey and Italy both have ATR-72 based MPAs, Portugal, Spain and Canada operate CN-295s though only the first as MPAs. I also presume Spain's P-3As and ex RNoAF P3-Ms haven't got a long future.
According to an April 2019 article in Jane's Defence Weekly, Boeing was pushing the P-8 to various groups of NATO countries as a temporary stop gap "until the alliance secures its own maritime capabilities by 2035". Methinks, "until 2035 my ar$3 !"
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...trol-aircraft/
France offers Germany four Atlantic 2 maritime patrol aircraft
COLOGNE, Germany — The French Armed Force Ministry has offered four Breguet Atlantic 2 planes to plug a looming gap in the German Navy’s anti-submarine capabilities, provided that Berlin springs for modernizing the planes.
“Depending on Germany’s needs, the four planes could be sold once the update to Standard 6 will be taken in charge by Germany,” a French defense spokesperson wrote in an email to Defense News.
“The four planes will be at the latest aircraft standard which successfully passed the initial operational capability milestone of the French navy in 2020, with a range of high-tech equipment for maritime patrol missions,” the email read. “The proposal includes training and maintenance.”
The ministry declined to specify a price tag for the offer. Weapons and countermeasures would be “processed in a second step,” the email stated.
Driving the French offer is a desire to keep Germany connected to the future Maritime Airborne Warfare System that the two countries want to jointly develop for fielding around 2035. But the German sea service needs new planes by 2025, the year the current P-3 Orion fleet is slated to reach the end of its serviceable life.
Defense officials in Berlin have yet to make up their minds about which aircraft they plan to propose to lawmakers for funding in the decade between. A spokesman said a decision was due before parliament goes on recess for the summer in late June.
According to the French ministry, the Atlantic 2 offer is “based on operational cooperation,” with negotiations continuing between the two navies and civilian defense leadership.
A German Navy spokesman referred questions about the viability of the French offer to the Defence Ministry in Berlin.
Former German Navy chief Vice Adm. Andreas Krause, who retired in late March, had advocated for buying American-made P-8 Poseidon aircraft as an interim solution, citing on Twitter a mid-March Defense News story about the requisite Pentagon clearance for a sale.
The new service chief, Vice Adm. Kay-Achim Schönbach, has yet to speak on the issue, according to the service spokesman.
France offers Germany four Atlantic 2 maritime patrol aircraft
COLOGNE, Germany — The French Armed Force Ministry has offered four Breguet Atlantic 2 planes to plug a looming gap in the German Navy’s anti-submarine capabilities, provided that Berlin springs for modernizing the planes.
“Depending on Germany’s needs, the four planes could be sold once the update to Standard 6 will be taken in charge by Germany,” a French defense spokesperson wrote in an email to Defense News.
“The four planes will be at the latest aircraft standard which successfully passed the initial operational capability milestone of the French navy in 2020, with a range of high-tech equipment for maritime patrol missions,” the email read. “The proposal includes training and maintenance.”
The ministry declined to specify a price tag for the offer. Weapons and countermeasures would be “processed in a second step,” the email stated.
Driving the French offer is a desire to keep Germany connected to the future Maritime Airborne Warfare System that the two countries want to jointly develop for fielding around 2035. But the German sea service needs new planes by 2025, the year the current P-3 Orion fleet is slated to reach the end of its serviceable life.
Defense officials in Berlin have yet to make up their minds about which aircraft they plan to propose to lawmakers for funding in the decade between. A spokesman said a decision was due before parliament goes on recess for the summer in late June.
According to the French ministry, the Atlantic 2 offer is “based on operational cooperation,” with negotiations continuing between the two navies and civilian defense leadership.
A German Navy spokesman referred questions about the viability of the French offer to the Defence Ministry in Berlin.
Former German Navy chief Vice Adm. Andreas Krause, who retired in late March, had advocated for buying American-made P-8 Poseidon aircraft as an interim solution, citing on Twitter a mid-March Defense News story about the requisite Pentagon clearance for a sale.
The new service chief, Vice Adm. Kay-Achim Schönbach, has yet to speak on the issue, according to the service spokesman.
Looks more like luring the Germans away from short notice ordering some P-8?
The dutch Orions were -known beforehand- structurally worn out but had nice equipment.
The dutch Orions were -known beforehand- structurally worn out but had nice equipment.
yeah - if Germany buys the P-8 the french will have to follow - there just isn't a big enough home market to justify an additional type
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I am not sure about the odds though. The Deutsche Marine brass are clearly rooting for P-8, and there is that growing naval cooperation with Norway. We all know what MPA they went for.
Haven't heard anything about the Netherlands wanting to get back into the MPA business, but if they do, P-8 would form the perfect basis for another Dutch-German integration exercise. This is pure speculation, though.
On Flight Global
Place your bets now as to who will win design leadership for this and the mooted Tornado/Rafale replacement...
Place your bets now as to who will win design leadership for this and the mooted Tornado/Rafale replacement...
Last edited by OKOC; 20th Apr 2021 at 13:28. Reason: auto correct!
The german industry just got some seven billion Euro drone contract. They should be able to accept some P-8 order now?
"Place your bets now as to who will win design leadership for this and the mooted Tornado/Rafale replacement..."
No bookie would take your money - we all know the French will flounce out unless they get design leadership
No bookie would take your money - we all know the French will flounce out unless they get design leadership
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...arine-hunters/
German Defence Ministry dismisses French offer of pre-loved submarine hunters
COLOGNE, Germany — German defense officials have dismissed a French offer of four Atlantique 2 maritime patrol aircraft, arguing the refurbished planes’ expected readiness state would make them unsuitable for service in the German Navy.
Officials in Paris extended a proposal to their counterparts in Berlin after news broke earlier this spring that the U.S. government was prepared to sell the German sea service a handful of P-8 Poseidon aircraft as a replacement for the country’s clapped-out P-3 Orion fleet.
It is unclear if defense leaders in Berlin have formally notified their French colleagues that they found the Atlantic 2-based proposal to be lackluster. Information about the conclusion first appeared in a letter last month from Thomas Silberhorn, one of the German Defence Ministry deputies, to lawmaker Christian Sauter, a member of the parliamentary Defence Committee.
German government-news service Behörden Spiegel first reported on the missive.
Silberhorn’s one-page response to Sauter, a member of the Free Democratic Party (FDP), suggests the idea of four Atlantique 2 planes wouldn’t even come close to plugging the Germany Navy’s maritime-patrol and anti-submarine shortfall, either for training or actual missions.
“The aircraft were produced as of 1984 and fielded to the French navy beginning in 1989,” the letter stated. “The condition of the proposed ATL2 cells was not specified by France,” it adds, using the acronym for the Dassault-made aircraft.
That language suggests a re-winging of the planes would be necessary, a tricky undertaking that officials here considered for a now-defunct Orion life-extension program before government auditors flagged runaway costs last summer, according to Sebastian Bruns, a naval analyst at the University of Kiel.
“If the French offer us a similar option, we haven’t gained anything,” he said. “I can’t help but think that they want to get rid of their aging airframes while driving a wedge into Germany’s prospective P-8 purchase.”....
German Defence Ministry dismisses French offer of pre-loved submarine hunters
COLOGNE, Germany — German defense officials have dismissed a French offer of four Atlantique 2 maritime patrol aircraft, arguing the refurbished planes’ expected readiness state would make them unsuitable for service in the German Navy.
Officials in Paris extended a proposal to their counterparts in Berlin after news broke earlier this spring that the U.S. government was prepared to sell the German sea service a handful of P-8 Poseidon aircraft as a replacement for the country’s clapped-out P-3 Orion fleet.
It is unclear if defense leaders in Berlin have formally notified their French colleagues that they found the Atlantic 2-based proposal to be lackluster. Information about the conclusion first appeared in a letter last month from Thomas Silberhorn, one of the German Defence Ministry deputies, to lawmaker Christian Sauter, a member of the parliamentary Defence Committee.
German government-news service Behörden Spiegel first reported on the missive.
Silberhorn’s one-page response to Sauter, a member of the Free Democratic Party (FDP), suggests the idea of four Atlantique 2 planes wouldn’t even come close to plugging the Germany Navy’s maritime-patrol and anti-submarine shortfall, either for training or actual missions.
“The aircraft were produced as of 1984 and fielded to the French navy beginning in 1989,” the letter stated. “The condition of the proposed ATL2 cells was not specified by France,” it adds, using the acronym for the Dassault-made aircraft.
That language suggests a re-winging of the planes would be necessary, a tricky undertaking that officials here considered for a now-defunct Orion life-extension program before government auditors flagged runaway costs last summer, according to Sebastian Bruns, a naval analyst at the University of Kiel.
“If the French offer us a similar option, we haven’t gained anything,” he said. “I can’t help but think that they want to get rid of their aging airframes while driving a wedge into Germany’s prospective P-8 purchase.”....
Shame we scrapped all those Nimrod...
Whatever happened to Airbus's 319 MPA offering? One would have thought France and Germany would have pulled out all the stops to get these.
Whatever happened to Airbus's 319 MPA offering? One would have thought France and Germany would have pulled out all the stops to get these.
Surprised that, with the number who seem to be involved, they didn't go for a pan-NATO joint unit, like the E3 unit.
Just an observation from a non-professional observer.
Just an observation from a non-professional observer.
There must have been some original plan to develop homegrown electronics. But this "need" can be covered with drones and FCAS so I don't see them finally procuring small numbers of A319 for this role now. And it makes sense to be NATO- and USN-style equipped. Still strange that they didn't get this going earlier with the Orions placed in between. They proved to be very expensive to get operational, got rewinged and such.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...hase-petition/
German government ups the pressure in $1.1B Poseidon purchase petition
COLOGNE, Germany – German government officials are asking for lawmakers’ approval to buy five P-8 Poseidon maritime-surveillance and submarine-hunting aircraft from the United States before Washington’s offer expires by the end of the month.
The request is detailed in an information package compiled by the Finance and Defence ministries for members of the Bundestag’s Budget committee. The panel is scheduled to meet June 23 to consider a raft of last-minute, defense-spending requests before lawmakers head into the summer recess ahead of the Sept. 26 federal election.
As is the case with other large military investments awaiting a decision, the P-8 acquisition would exceed current budget projections. The Defense and Finance ministries are negotiating an out-of-cycle budget increase to provide the necessary funding of roughly 1.4 billion euros, or $1.7 billion, through 2026.
The U.S. government’s offer for the aircraft, dated April 5, comes in at 1.1 billion. Taxes, training, spares and support make up remainder of the request to lawmakers, according to the document.….
German government ups the pressure in $1.1B Poseidon purchase petition
COLOGNE, Germany – German government officials are asking for lawmakers’ approval to buy five P-8 Poseidon maritime-surveillance and submarine-hunting aircraft from the United States before Washington’s offer expires by the end of the month.
The request is detailed in an information package compiled by the Finance and Defence ministries for members of the Bundestag’s Budget committee. The panel is scheduled to meet June 23 to consider a raft of last-minute, defense-spending requests before lawmakers head into the summer recess ahead of the Sept. 26 federal election.
As is the case with other large military investments awaiting a decision, the P-8 acquisition would exceed current budget projections. The Defense and Finance ministries are negotiating an out-of-cycle budget increase to provide the necessary funding of roughly 1.4 billion euros, or $1.7 billion, through 2026.
The U.S. government’s offer for the aircraft, dated April 5, comes in at 1.1 billion. Taxes, training, spares and support make up remainder of the request to lawmakers, according to the document.….
The German parliament budget committee green lighted five Poseidons and to continue FCAS.
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Not all happy families
Germany buys Boeing P8A Poseidon, France left in the dark (aerotime.aero)
Germany buys Boeing P8A Poseidon, France left in the dark (aerotime.aero)
With this order, Germany becomes the eighth customer to acquire this multi-mission maritime surveillance aircraft after the United States, Australia, India, the United Kingdom, Norway, South Korea, and New Zealand.
The contract might come as a blow to the Maritime Airborne Warfare System (MAWS), another program conjointly agreed on with France in 2016. Indeed, the 22 Dassault Breguet Atlantique 2 of the Marine Nationale are also in need of replacement. The joint solution is set to materialize by 2030.
The discussions between the United States and Germany took place without warning France, the French Minister of the Armed Forces Florence Parly told La Tribune. In fact, French authorities only learned the news when the US Defense Security and Cooperation Agency (DSCA) cleared the sale of the five Poseidon in March 2021.
Worried to see its partner abandon the MAWS program, France made a counteroffer in April 2021. It would provide 4 Atlantique 2 brought to the current standard (6), fitted with the latest generation equipment. But the offer did convince the German authorities.
The contract might come as a blow to the Maritime Airborne Warfare System (MAWS), another program conjointly agreed on with France in 2016. Indeed, the 22 Dassault Breguet Atlantique 2 of the Marine Nationale are also in need of replacement. The joint solution is set to materialize by 2030.
The discussions between the United States and Germany took place without warning France, the French Minister of the Armed Forces Florence Parly told La Tribune. In fact, French authorities only learned the news when the US Defense Security and Cooperation Agency (DSCA) cleared the sale of the five Poseidon in March 2021.
Worried to see its partner abandon the MAWS program, France made a counteroffer in April 2021. It would provide 4 Atlantique 2 brought to the current standard (6), fitted with the latest generation equipment. But the offer did convince the German authorities.