1968 FLYING SCHOLARS?
W00. PP'. Great aeroplane. Good rate of roll, but vented fuel on slow rolls which came into the cockpit via the ill fitting top of the canopy. A demanding' Basic Trainer being a tail dragger. Leonides sometimes threw a pot' but was pretty reliable. Could out climb a JP3 to 5000' but then that wasn't too difficult. Shuttleworth fly one on high days and holidays.
AD' Redhill Flying Club Maggies 1953'.
AD' Redhill Flying Club Maggies 1953'.
aw ditor "vented fuel on slow rolls which came into the cockpit via the ill fitting top of the canopy."
Indeed-and not only on slow rolls . Unfortunately it was only later realized that some pupils who been chopped for "airsickness" were probably victims of this.
Indeed-and not only on slow rolls . Unfortunately it was only later realized that some pupils who been chopped for "airsickness" were probably victims of this.
A slightly different 'scholarship' for me - when I finished my Halton Apprenticeship I (somehow 
) managed to get awarded the Philip Sassoon Flying Award - I was always really grateful to my Flight Commander for putting me in for it.All the candidates went to OASC at Biggin (at that time) for selection tests,anyway somehow I got the Halton award for that term (the other apprentice schools also had a winner each).
So in may 72 I went to AST Perth (Scone) and had a lovely 6 week holiday there,flying 1,2,3 or 4 sorties a day depending on weather and QFI availability etc.Driving around in C150's - solo @ 6.45,some previous gliding experience of course was a big help
.
Got my PPL and then turned up at Cottesmore to a bit of a bollocking from Eng Control (they had not been told about the flying course,although I would guess that the scribblies did know about it) - so was sent to the Canberra OCU at the far end of the airfield as a sort of 'punishment' for not being there in time for my original planned unit posting.
My eyesight was waay too bad for professional aircrew at that time so there was no chance of GDP etc
) managed to get awarded the Philip Sassoon Flying Award - I was always really grateful to my Flight Commander for putting me in for it.All the candidates went to OASC at Biggin (at that time) for selection tests,anyway somehow I got the Halton award for that term (the other apprentice schools also had a winner each).So in may 72 I went to AST Perth (Scone) and had a lovely 6 week holiday there,flying 1,2,3 or 4 sorties a day depending on weather and QFI availability etc.Driving around in C150's - solo @ 6.45,some previous gliding experience of course was a big help
.Got my PPL and then turned up at Cottesmore to a bit of a bollocking from Eng Control (they had not been told about the flying course,although I would guess that the scribblies did know about it) - so was sent to the Canberra OCU at the far end of the airfield as a sort of 'punishment' for not being there in time for my original planned unit posting
.My eyesight was waay too bad for professional aircrew at that time so there was no chance of GDP etc
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Piston Provost ill-fitting canopy
From my year at Cranwell (actually, in context, Barkston Heath and Spitalgate Sep 1959 - June 1960) I remember nothing of air sickness on my course, nor of drafty cockpits or fumes in the cockpit. If Haraka says so, there must have been a problem at other schools and we might have been lucky.
I cannot work out how the vented fuel should get back to the cockpit, as I seem to remember that the vent was at the very tail of the aircraft. One can imagine that air might creep back up the fuselage in the surface environment, but inverted in a slow roll is when there is positive pressure over (under) the canopy. The problem must then come from the engine. In normal flight the canopy ought to be evacuating fumes etc through the venturi effect.
Could it be that the fumes (let us hope not fuel) are coming through the firewall ? I think we have discussed elsewhere the loss of an admired PP owner when his engine fire broke through the firewall.
I cannot work out how the vented fuel should get back to the cockpit, as I seem to remember that the vent was at the very tail of the aircraft. One can imagine that air might creep back up the fuselage in the surface environment, but inverted in a slow roll is when there is positive pressure over (under) the canopy. The problem must then come from the engine. In normal flight the canopy ought to be evacuating fumes etc through the venturi effect.
Could it be that the fumes (let us hope not fuel) are coming through the firewall ? I think we have discussed elsewhere the loss of an admired PP owner when his engine fire broke through the firewall.
I cannot remember any of the Ghanaians, Malaysians, Jordanians, Iraqis, Lebanese or Brits on our course suffering from airsickness and I don't remember any fumes otherwise the cockpit would have blown up when my instructor and myself lit up a fag.
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I've never flown in a Piston Provost, but certainly a poorly-flown stall turn in a Chipmunk could result in fuel escaping from the anti-siphon vents splattering against the cockpit canopy....
The worst honk-inducing smell though, was the horrible rubber smell of the H-type mask...
Although the previous night's 'relaxation' in the OM bar might have been a contributory factor.
The worst honk-inducing smell though, was the horrible rubber smell of the H-type mask...
Although the previous night's 'relaxation' in the OM bar might have been a contributory factor.
According to Huntings' Chief defects engineer at the time ,the fuel vapour apparently initially.crept back along the top side of the fuselage and in to the cockpit area . Might this have been before the fuel vent was placed on top of the fin?
I really couldn't say .
I really couldn't say .
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I did not know of the vent at the top of the fin, which I should have thought required really complicated plumbing.
If this photo can be accessed, it shows what I had in mind.
http://www.britmodeller.com/walkarou...ovost-0010.JPG
The vertical fuselage element below the elevator has two circular features. The upper one is I think the white nav light. The bottom one, as near to the ground as can be, is where I expect the vent to be.
I (unreliably) remember that vent being provided with a short wick to hang in the airstream. As a very-non-technician, I would have though a wick would strongly encourage the passing fuel to disengage from the aircraft when otherwise it might be tempted to creep back (forward) up the fuselage
If this photo can be accessed, it shows what I had in mind.
http://www.britmodeller.com/walkarou...ovost-0010.JPG
The vertical fuselage element below the elevator has two circular features. The upper one is I think the white nav light. The bottom one, as near to the ground as can be, is where I expect the vent to be.
I (unreliably) remember that vent being provided with a short wick to hang in the airstream. As a very-non-technician, I would have though a wick would strongly encourage the passing fuel to disengage from the aircraft when otherwise it might be tempted to creep back (forward) up the fuselage
Last edited by rlsbutler; 5th Apr 2018 at 14:50. Reason: another thought
"I seem to remember that the vent was at the very tail of the aircraft."
Sorry, perhaps I misread.that
The fuel fumes ingestion problem nevertheless was identified as a concern at the time and was attributed to these creeping back along the upper fuselage and entering the cockpit via the canopy.
FWIW the wing fuel tanks fed to a collector tank in the belly under the cockpit.
Sorry, perhaps I misread.that
The fuel fumes ingestion problem nevertheless was identified as a concern at the time and was attributed to these creeping back along the upper fuselage and entering the cockpit via the canopy.
FWIW the wing fuel tanks fed to a collector tank in the belly under the cockpit.
Last edited by Haraka; 5th Apr 2018 at 15:39.
I really don't remember fuel fumes coming through the top of the canopy but then the slow roll was one of my favourite manoeuvres and I always flew them perfectly! Being serious now, I do remember one chap on the course ahead of me who had terrible trouble with air sickness in the PP and it was eventually put down to fumes coming through the firewall. He survived and we ended up as fellow DC-10 captains with Fred Laker.
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Flying Schol at Yeadon in '61.
My school friend Barry Hyde and myself went together for around six weeks (from Lancaster Royal Grammar), staying in B&B. He had developed a relationship with a young lass from Horsforth whilst we were there. A year later, he was killed in a Piston Provost night mid-air in the circuit at Acklington. Some years later I was on leave and driving in the dark to a pub near Lancaster (many miles from Horsforth), when an oncoming car failed to negotiate a bend and rolled right over the top of us. We stopped, got out and walked towards what we thought would be a disaster. Instead, the survivors walked towards out of the gloom. It was his old girlfriend and beau. Creepy to say the least!
My school friend Barry Hyde and myself went together for around six weeks (from Lancaster Royal Grammar), staying in B&B. He had developed a relationship with a young lass from Horsforth whilst we were there. A year later, he was killed in a Piston Provost night mid-air in the circuit at Acklington. Some years later I was on leave and driving in the dark to a pub near Lancaster (many miles from Horsforth), when an oncoming car failed to negotiate a bend and rolled right over the top of us. We stopped, got out and walked towards what we thought would be a disaster. Instead, the survivors walked towards out of the gloom. It was his old girlfriend and beau. Creepy to say the least!
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Now reunited with my logbooks and Cadet Record of Service (CCF and ATC). Oh, what a lucky cadet I was ... I got pretty much all of the goodies available, with Gliding School, PPL and International Air Cadet Exchange all ticked off over a 3-year period. Oh, and an AOC Air Cadets Commendation chucked in too! They were great years to be a CCF/ATC Cadet (58-63) which I finished off in 64 as a Civilian Instructor with my old ATC Sqn (144 Richmond) in my 'gap year' between RN and RAF service.
18 Aug 61. Glider solo at No. 1 Gliding Centre RAF Hawkinge, awarded A and B Certificates.
29 Jul 62. Flying Scholarship, Oxford Aeroplane Club, Kidlington. First solo in Piper Colt G-ARKN. Time to solo 5h35m. Group A PPL #62833 awarded 22 Aug 62. Thank you, Mr. Johnson, for your patience!
Jul/Aug 63. IACE to Idaho, in the company of another Cadet FS who in later years would be known in the RAF as "C4"
All of which led to my [brief] flying career in the RN, where I failed my Flying Grading at Roborough in Dec 63!
reynoldsno1, re your post #32 ... your Mr. Lucas at Kidlington was the Chief Instructor of RN Flying Grading at the time, and my instructor was his son (the shouting, coaming-thumping, confidence-destroying one!). In my Log Books as Lucas Snr. and Lucas Jnr., and "their" Tiger Moths were BB694 and T8191 respectively.
18 Aug 61. Glider solo at No. 1 Gliding Centre RAF Hawkinge, awarded A and B Certificates.
29 Jul 62. Flying Scholarship, Oxford Aeroplane Club, Kidlington. First solo in Piper Colt G-ARKN. Time to solo 5h35m. Group A PPL #62833 awarded 22 Aug 62. Thank you, Mr. Johnson, for your patience!
Jul/Aug 63. IACE to Idaho, in the company of another Cadet FS who in later years would be known in the RAF as "C4"
All of which led to my [brief] flying career in the RN, where I failed my Flying Grading at Roborough in Dec 63!
reynoldsno1, re your post #32 ... your Mr. Lucas at Kidlington was the Chief Instructor of RN Flying Grading at the time, and my instructor was his son (the shouting, coaming-thumping, confidence-destroying one!). In my Log Books as Lucas Snr. and Lucas Jnr., and "their" Tiger Moths were BB694 and T8191 respectively.
