What is an RAF Engineer?
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The definition has also been somewhat watered down by the EU trying to muscle in to English language as it are written by EU Law-yers.
The EU seem to ignore the definition of engineer as someone who makes things work in preference to a literal translation from Ingeneur - German for some form of doctorate.
To prove the point - in EASA-land, Aircraft Maintenance Licences are given the Category/Title:
The EU seem to ignore the definition of engineer as someone who makes things work in preference to a literal translation from Ingeneur - German for some form of doctorate.
To prove the point - in EASA-land, Aircraft Maintenance Licences are given the Category/Title:
CAT A Mechanic (aka FLM)
CAT B Technician (aka Worker Ant)
CAT C Engineer (aka computer driver)
They are roles, not ranks, and can all be gained independently from each other. However, a stand-alone CAT C is not well respected...I believe!CAT B Technician (aka Worker Ant)
CAT C Engineer (aka computer driver)
Hence I am all three, however a C certer still has to inspect an aircraft and scope the amount of work he deems required to reissue an ARC thus " renewing the Certificate of Airworthiness for another year" so not all PC driver
And my CAA "title" was a Nominated Engineer
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SAC Tech wasn't that simply a way to get around paying a JT more while dumbing down the rank.
Mind you I'm still a believer an apprenticeship should be a full 5 years, not a couple of months training followed by a couple of years out in the real world learning a narrow field then a further few months training.
Mind you I'm still a believer an apprenticeship should be a full 5 years, not a couple of months training followed by a couple of years out in the real world learning a narrow field then a further few months training.
Hence I am all three, however a C certer still has to inspect an aircraft and scope the amount of work he deems required to reissue an ARC thus " renewing the Certificate of Airworthiness for another year" so not all PC driver
And my CAA "title" was a Nominated Engineer
And my CAA "title" was a Nominated Engineer
I don't have a C but I authorise C signatories, and mostly they are computer drivers - for Base Maintenance CRS.
SAC Tech wasn't that simply a way to get around paying a JT more while dumbing down the rank.
Mind you I'm still a believer an apprenticeship should be a full 5 years, not a couple of months training followed by a couple of years out in the real world learning a narrow field then a further few months training.
Mind you I'm still a believer an apprenticeship should be a full 5 years, not a couple of months training followed by a couple of years out in the real world learning a narrow field then a further few months training.
I did the other form of OJT - through the Mech/Fitter/Techie route and I don't think it did me any harm...I am paid the level of a junior Groupie. But I didn't get a HND or Degree as some now do from Cosford.
The JT was another victim of the NATO Rank system...not a Lance Jack nor Full Cpl - so again, it had to go to 'fit in'. But the RAF again, needed a low Techie rank and had to invent the SAC Tech. This caused other problems with discrimination of ranks within SAC's!! To the point that the Rocks now have a Lance Jack to fit in with NATO Ranks...they used to have a "Senior" SAC as a second to their Cpl.
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The simplest route would have been to gone back to the old JT rank badge that was an inverted Lance Jack stripe, I too went your route. Nominated Engineer went when we changed over, but I still retain my Section L licences, the way things are going we may need them again lol.
The NATO rank equivalence poster was a joke with all the RAF OR ranks undervalued, with an RAF J/T shown as an OR2, the same as a conscript with six months service in most of the air forces. I know the Italian and Greek technicians passed out of technical training at least OR5.
The RAF had nine OR ranks, so why not just number them OR1 to OR9, on the chart an RAF CPL is the same as a USAF Senior Airman at OR4.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_...orces_enlisted
The RAF had nine OR ranks, so why not just number them OR1 to OR9, on the chart an RAF CPL is the same as a USAF Senior Airman at OR4.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_...orces_enlisted
Radar101
As an ex RAF Air Engineer, we are (there are a handful left) a class of our own for many, some dubious, reasons. As a UK Chartered Engineer, I would suggest that this position was mis-named. I guess in modern parlance, I would have been an "Aircraft Systems Manager". The unfortunate Blue was a Technician, not an Engineer.
In N America, as already pointed out, an Engineer must hold a suitable engineering degree from a recognized body, and must be licenced. Sadly, in the UK, an "engineer" can be honest Dave (with no GCSEs), the dodgy bloke who fixes your washing machine.
As an ex RAF Air Engineer, we are (there are a handful left) a class of our own for many, some dubious, reasons. As a UK Chartered Engineer, I would suggest that this position was mis-named. I guess in modern parlance, I would have been an "Aircraft Systems Manager". The unfortunate Blue was a Technician, not an Engineer.
In N America, as already pointed out, an Engineer must hold a suitable engineering degree from a recognized body, and must be licenced. Sadly, in the UK, an "engineer" can be honest Dave (with no GCSEs), the dodgy bloke who fixes your washing machine.
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IEng is an engineer grade is it not?
Ttfn
ADRP, most of which I think is now in the MAA, tried to address the problem of formal qualifications Vs competence Vs experience a few years ago and wrote this:
‘The normal understanding of a competent person is one who has practical know-how, theoretical knowledge, and actual experience of the subject matter. Academic qualification by itself is not a measure of competence, but an indication of the holder’s ability to satisfy an examining body at some point in the past, although it may be an indication of theoretical knowledge’.
The author was well-known for his condemnation of the policy whereby a non-technical direct entrant (never mind one with an engineering degree) could self-delegate airworthiness and technical approvals. This was his attempt to prevent it happening with our industry appointees under the DAOS scheme; as there was no way he’d win the argument in MoD. This policy is the problem, not some JEngO learning the ropes under slightly less qualified but very experienced and competent WOs/NCOs.
‘The normal understanding of a competent person is one who has practical know-how, theoretical knowledge, and actual experience of the subject matter. Academic qualification by itself is not a measure of competence, but an indication of the holder’s ability to satisfy an examining body at some point in the past, although it may be an indication of theoretical knowledge’.
The author was well-known for his condemnation of the policy whereby a non-technical direct entrant (never mind one with an engineering degree) could self-delegate airworthiness and technical approvals. This was his attempt to prevent it happening with our industry appointees under the DAOS scheme; as there was no way he’d win the argument in MoD. This policy is the problem, not some JEngO learning the ropes under slightly less qualified but very experienced and competent WOs/NCOs.
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Bit of thread drift if I may. When doing my family history I discovered that my great great grandfather's profession was given as "engineer", and yet he had signed his birth certificate with a cross, as he was illiterate. Further research revealed that he actually operated a stationary steam engine used to pump out a tin mine. In the same period (mid 19th century) the term was also used to describe railway engine drivers. I believe this is still the case in the US, who often retain the original meaning of English words which have subsequently altered on this side of the pond.
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great great grandfather's profession was given as "engineer", and yet he had signed his birth certificate with a cross, as he was illiterate.
As I posted earlier, I think you need a degree to be a true engineer and I don't think, could be shot down here, that the universities offered engineering degrees until the early 20th. century. Maths, physics and chemistry were offered in the mid 19th. but not engineering. So what defined an engineer in the 1850s is debatable. As an aside, it does make you wonder about Brunel, Watt, Stevenson and the like?
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Several years ago there was a big push for people to be come registered with The Engineering Council through the appropriate institutions. I chose the RAeS route. Quite proud of my achievements as without a degree I was subject to greater scrutiny. I had to spend a great deal of effort writing a paper and being mentored. The rules changed somewhere in between the start and end of the process but I made the grade.
In my dying days in the MoD I thought they had made it compulsory for those in some posts to become registered. I don’t see much evidence of this. Has the requirement been relaxed or does it not matter any more?
In my dying days in the MoD I thought they had made it compulsory for those in some posts to become registered. I don’t see much evidence of this. Has the requirement been relaxed or does it not matter any more?
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The missing link in all this is the fact that in the UK a 'professional engineer' is one who has 'Chartered' status which is closely guarded by the senior engineering institutions and these days requires not only an honours degree, but one from a very limited list of universities.
I write C.Eng M I Mech E after my BSc(Hons) on my business card. I can sign passport applications and various other legal documents (I don't think I can marry people though).
The problem in the UK has always been that unlike some countries the word 'engineer' is not protected. Repeated attempts to get legislation to ban the use of the title by non-chartered people have failed. So a plumber can call himself a sanitary engineer if he likes. No wonder the public are confused. In Germany and other European states the title is protected and use of it by those not entitled is breaking the law.
When bidding for US DoD contracts in the defence companies I was in, the number of professional engineers (ie Chartered - PE to them) allocated to the job was a matter of great importance. If you didn't have enough you would not win the contract.
When I worked in Germany I was always introduced as Herr Diploma Engineer ... so as to make the distinction clear - the Germans were very fussy about rank and titles.
I write C.Eng M I Mech E after my BSc(Hons) on my business card. I can sign passport applications and various other legal documents (I don't think I can marry people though).
The problem in the UK has always been that unlike some countries the word 'engineer' is not protected. Repeated attempts to get legislation to ban the use of the title by non-chartered people have failed. So a plumber can call himself a sanitary engineer if he likes. No wonder the public are confused. In Germany and other European states the title is protected and use of it by those not entitled is breaking the law.
When bidding for US DoD contracts in the defence companies I was in, the number of professional engineers (ie Chartered - PE to them) allocated to the job was a matter of great importance. If you didn't have enough you would not win the contract.
When I worked in Germany I was always introduced as Herr Diploma Engineer ... so as to make the distinction clear - the Germans were very fussy about rank and titles.