What is an RAF Engineer?

[radar101]

Everyone up to and including the Prime Minister has been referring to the poor RAF Aircraft Technician as "an Engineer".


My first thought on hearing of the incident on the BBC was SEngO or JEngO?


Then reality kicked in and I accepted that they meant one of the Engineering Technicians.


Since the official press releases / spokespersons referred to him an Engineer does this mean that that is now the official term within the RAF - or are they just ignorant?


PS: Look North referred to him as an Air Engineer!!

[Exrigger]

From my records:

I started as an:
Aircraft Fitter Airframe - Trade Group 1 - Aircraft Engineering,

this then changed to:
Aircraft Technician Airframe - Trade Group 1 - Aircraft Engineering,

and was changed once again to Engineering Technician Airframe - Trade Group 1 - Aircraft Engineering

So engineer would fit as a generic term, I would assume, been out for a while so it might have changed again.

[The Oberon]

Originally Posted by Exrigger

From my records:

I started as an:
Aircraft Fitter Airframe - Trade Group 1 - Aircraft Engineering,

this then changed to:
Aircraft Technician Airframe - Trade Group 1 - Aircraft Engineering,

and was changed once again to Engineering Technician Airframe - Trade Group 1 - Aircraft Engineering

So engineer would fit as a generic term, I would assume, been out for a while so it might have changed again.

Same here ER, substitute Electronic for Airframe, chuck in a handful of O levels, ONC and HNC and no I'm not because I don't have a degree.

[Exrigger]

I suppose if one has a Licentiateship in Aeronautical Engineering off the back of a service career one could also consider 'engineer' an appropriate moniker, also dictionary definition:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/engineer

A person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures.
or

A person qualified in a branch of engineering, especially as a professional.
‘an aeronautical engineer’

[radar101]

Interesting - Wiki:


"In the US and Canada, engineering is a regulated profession whose practice and practitioners are licensed and governed by law. Licensed professional engineers in Canada and the USA are referred to as P.Eng (Canada) and PE (USA). A 2002 study by the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers revealed that engineers are the third most respected professionals behind doctors and pharmacists.


In Ontario, and all other Canadian provinces, the "title" Engineer is protected by law and any non-licensed individual or company using the title is committing a legal offense, and can get fined. Companies usually prefer not to use the title except for license holders because of liability reasons, for instance, if the company filed a lawsuit and the judge, investigators, or lawyers found that the company is using the word engineer for non licensed employees this could be used by opponents to hinder the company's efforts."

[Bigpants]

RAF Cosford is the home of RAF Engineering, there used to be two flying units on base but thanks to contractorisation neither was serviced by our own engineers.

RAF Engineers must be a small and fading tribe of box changers who exist at other bases.

[NutLoose]

On the other hand my CAA licences are printed with Aircraft Maintenance Engineer Licence on the front, my EASA one has just Aircraft Maintenance Licence on it or similar and I am referred to, well to my face at least , as a Licenced Aircraft Engineer.

In most of Europe a degree is the norm for my job.

The RAF simply used to shuffle the job titles around to try to equal it to the civilian counterpart hence Fitter went out and in came Technician...only only problem with that today is the skill set hasn't been maintained but dumbed down from what would be expected Civilian wise.

In a way it's like Cooks and Chefs, even working in the worst pizza joint or fried chicken establishment they will tend to call themselves Chefs these days. Well...unless there flipping burgers and then they are Navigators

[morton]

What is an Aircraft Engineer for that matter? Whether Service or Civilian, the word ‘Engineer’ has been the subject of much debate within Aviation. On the Civilian side we seemed to be OK holding an Aircraft Maintenance Engineers Licence under CAA legislation. Then JAA came along and muddied the water before EASA decreed that we had to be called Certifying Technicians for the Authorisations we held. Their rationale was that the position did not require a Degree and only someone holding a Degree could be called an Engineer.

If I remember correctly, some very experienced and capable people in the CAA who were on the JAA Board were denied similar positions on the EASA board because they did not have Degrees. It would be unfair to brand everybody on the EASA Board with the epithet of ‘has the knowledge to work out the cubic capacity of a tin of beans but lacks the ability to open it’. However, including someone who had got their hands dirty having done what others were theorising would have made a lot of sense and brought a more balanced discussion when introducing legislation.

I think the answer is that we are aligning ourselves with mainland Europe and tyre-kicker trades are mechanics or technicians whilst Engineering Officers remain as Engineers. However, the general public see those that do Engineering ‘stuff’ as Engineers and that is where the confusion lies.

I wasn’t that fussed about what I was called. As long as pay accounts got it right I was happy.

Morton – RAF Aircraft Fitter that changed to Technician; Civilian Aircraft Engineer that changed to Technician.

[Shackeng]

Originally Posted by morton

What is an Aircraft Engineer for that matter? Whether Service or Civilian, the word ‘Engineer’ has been the subject of much debate within Aviation. On the Civilian side we seemed to be OK holding an Aircraft Maintenance Engineers Licence under CAA legislation. Then JAA came along and muddied the water before EASA decreed that we had to be called Certifying Technicians for the Authorisations we held. Their rationale was that the position did not require a Degree and only someone holding a Degree could be called an Engineer.

If I remember correctly, some very experienced and capable people in the CAA who were on the JAA Board were denied similar positions on the EASA board because they did not have Degrees. It would be unfair to brand everybody on the EASA Board with the epithet of ‘has the knowledge to work out the cubic capacity of a tin of beans but lacks the ability to open it’. However, including someone who had got their hands dirty having done what others were theorising would have made a lot of sense and brought a more balanced discussion when introducing legislation.

I think the answer is that we are aligning ourselves with mainland Europe and tyre-kicker trades are mechanics or technicians whilst Engineering Officers remain as Engineers. However, the general public see those that do Engineering ‘stuff’ as Engineers and that is where the confusion lies.

I wasn’t that fussed about what I was called. As long as pay accounts got it right I was happy.

Morton – RAF Aircraft Fitter that changed to Technician; Civilian Aircraft Engineer that changed to Technician.

Ah yes, I remember well when the RAF, in its wisdom, introduced graduate Engineering Officers in the '60's, replacing, in the main, vastly experienced ex RAF Apprentice Engineering Officers, most of whom had spent years at the coalface learning their trade. For us Flight Engineers, it was not altogether a happy experience.

[thing]

Just had a look through my 6859:

Nav Inst Mechanic
Flight Systems Mechanic
Flight Systems Technician
Engineering Technician Avionics

More or less the same job with four name changes. Makes me sound windswept and interesting I suppose. I'm guessing that putting 'Engineering' in front of 'Technician' was a bit of sales blather to flog it to new recruits. Sounds a bit more rarified than just plain old technician. I guess it's in line with 'upping' the spec of fairly banal jobs society wide. Refuse disposal officers and barista spring to mind. Not that I found being a techy banal by the way.

I've also found that I was awarded the X717 annotation of Instrument Maker and Horological Skills on 20 Feb '84. Bet that's a rare bird, can't even remember getting it.

[goudie]

If the title ’engineer’ is favoured over ‘technician’ then perhaps the rank of ‘chief technician’ should change to ‘chief engineer’.

[thing]

Do they still have Junior Technicians?

[Lima Juliet]

This is the Branch and Trade logo...



But you could say that he was Aircraft Ground Engineer (GE) on the day of the tragic accident - as I would have expected he would have turned the jet whilst the pilot was in the sim?

[Rigga]

The definition has also been somewhat watered down by the EU trying to muscle in to English language as it are written by EU Law-yers.

The EU seem to ignore the definition of engineer as someone who makes things work in preference to a literal translation from Ingeneur - German for some form of doctorate.

To prove the point - in EASA-land, Aircraft Maintenance Licences are given the Category/Title:

CAT A Mechanic (aka FLM)
CAT B Technician (aka Worker Ant)
CAT C Engineer (aka computer driver)

They are roles, not ranks, and can all be gained independently from each other. However, a stand-alone CAT C is not well respected...I believe!

[Rigga]

Originally Posted by thing

Do they still have Junior Technicians?

No. They have a far cheaper SAC Technician...who wears a Three-bladed "Cosford Wheel" (My terminology).

[thing]

No. They have a far cheaper SAC Technician...who wears a Three-bladed "Cosford Wheel".

But they still have Chief Techs?

[Rigga]

The C'T rank never quite fitted into NATO classifications as it slotted between Grunt Sgt and Staff Sgt. and the RAF has built such as strong role for them that it cant get rid of em in the aircraft trade (all the MTSF and GEF C/Ts have gone) - so C/Ts are now classed as a poor Flt Sgt and just about get the same pension rights

[gr4techie]

You could ask if Engo's are even Engineers?... They just sign the paperwork for Lim's and ADF's.

Never seen one get their hands dirty doing an engine change (unless they're ex-rankers)

[snippy]

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works (excuse the pun).....but at my current MOD place of work they tend to be called Maintainers.....

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by Shackeng

Ah yes, I remember well when the RAF, in its wisdom, introduced graduate Engineering Officers in the '60's, replacing, in the main, vastly experienced ex RAF Apprentice Engineering Officers, most of whom had spent years at the coalface learning their trade. For us Flight Engineers, it was not altogether a happy experience.

In the pre-Binbrook stations there were three wings, Flying Wing, Admin Wing and Technical Wing. The boss of the later was the Senior Technical Officer.