INCIDENT AT VALLEY
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Of course this is all highly distressing for the families etc and there are times when I too cringe at some of the images we have to look at across either the airwaves or in print, but the day those from above slap a ban on this type of thing is the day we begin the rest of our lives living in a dictatorship.
The simple truth is press freedom in all its forms good and bad, unpalatable as it can be at times = a free and fair democracy.
The simple truth is press freedom in all its forms good and bad, unpalatable as it can be at times = a free and fair democracy.
BBC online news:
Red Arrows pay tribute to pilot killed in crash
The Red Arrows have released a video paying tribute to Jonathan Bayliss who was killed after a Red Arrows jet crashed in Wales earlier this week.
Cpl Bayliss, 41, was killed when the Hawk aircraft, which is used by the aerobatic display team, crashed at RAF Valley on Anglesey on Tuesday afternoon.
One despairs!!
Red Arrows pay tribute to pilot killed in crash
The Red Arrows have released a video paying tribute to Jonathan Bayliss who was killed after a Red Arrows jet crashed in Wales earlier this week.
Cpl Bayliss, 41, was killed when the Hawk aircraft, which is used by the aerobatic display team, crashed at RAF Valley on Anglesey on Tuesday afternoon.
One despairs!!
To the public, a crew member of a fast jet is a 'pilot'. Back to my earlier point about who the press writes for - I doubt that anyone outside of PPRuNe-land is as outraged at this as you.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Those of you who are familiar with with B of I or SI know that there are a number of objectives in the Terms of Reference. The two most obvious ones are:
1. Determine the cause.
2. Prevent a re-occurrence.
Information surrounding an accident is perishable, and people forget or subconsciously change the mental narrative over time, so prompt documentation and collection of evidence is a critical factor in an effective investigation. Any photographs or video of the accident are particularly useful in establishing configurations and modes of operation, that is a fact. Concurrently, it is inevitable that the circumstances will be discussed by those directly related and those indirectly related to the accident. Those discussions can be counter productive when highly speculative, but can reinforce a culture of safety when highlighting risk mitigations around hazardous operations. These discussions will occur in all circumstances.
The objectivity of the B of I or SI should not be influenced by any social or emotional ties to those unfortunate enough to be the subject of such inquiries, whether the accident results in fatalities or not. Consequently the pursuit of the inquiry's objectives are not served by elapsed time or by any form of emotive distancing, other than the observance of the normal protocol and respect when appropriate. Serving as a member of an inquiry when the victim(s) were close colleagues and personal friends normally drives a desire to be absolutely professional and objective in determining the cause and preventing a re-occurrence.
That is the Service aspect of the inquiry, which is fortunately removed from the media coverage and public opinion (with obvious exceptions). If media coverage offends you personally, take it up with the guilty party, complaints can be effective. If you were emotionally involved with the victims, try to direct that energy into providing solace and comfort to the colleagues and families but also try and avoid having your emotions triggered by the media coverage and social media in particular. People will legitimately try to understand what happened through argument and speculation on such boards as this. That is a natural reaction to any accident. Admonishments based on your social proximity to the victims can be counter productive in an environment where discussion participants are anonymous or may deliberately misrepresent themselves.
I suspect many of us on here have been in the position of scrutinizing the last moments of friends and colleagues, and we repaid their contribution to the services by performing that task objectively and professionally, while not being distracted by the public and media clamour.
1. Determine the cause.
2. Prevent a re-occurrence.
Information surrounding an accident is perishable, and people forget or subconsciously change the mental narrative over time, so prompt documentation and collection of evidence is a critical factor in an effective investigation. Any photographs or video of the accident are particularly useful in establishing configurations and modes of operation, that is a fact. Concurrently, it is inevitable that the circumstances will be discussed by those directly related and those indirectly related to the accident. Those discussions can be counter productive when highly speculative, but can reinforce a culture of safety when highlighting risk mitigations around hazardous operations. These discussions will occur in all circumstances.
The objectivity of the B of I or SI should not be influenced by any social or emotional ties to those unfortunate enough to be the subject of such inquiries, whether the accident results in fatalities or not. Consequently the pursuit of the inquiry's objectives are not served by elapsed time or by any form of emotive distancing, other than the observance of the normal protocol and respect when appropriate. Serving as a member of an inquiry when the victim(s) were close colleagues and personal friends normally drives a desire to be absolutely professional and objective in determining the cause and preventing a re-occurrence.
That is the Service aspect of the inquiry, which is fortunately removed from the media coverage and public opinion (with obvious exceptions). If media coverage offends you personally, take it up with the guilty party, complaints can be effective. If you were emotionally involved with the victims, try to direct that energy into providing solace and comfort to the colleagues and families but also try and avoid having your emotions triggered by the media coverage and social media in particular. People will legitimately try to understand what happened through argument and speculation on such boards as this. That is a natural reaction to any accident. Admonishments based on your social proximity to the victims can be counter productive in an environment where discussion participants are anonymous or may deliberately misrepresent themselves.
I suspect many of us on here have been in the position of scrutinizing the last moments of friends and colleagues, and we repaid their contribution to the services by performing that task objectively and professionally, while not being distracted by the public and media clamour.
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Originally Posted by wiggy
FWIW I’m in agreement with others here who have stated the above sounds very much like the RAF F4 accident where the aircraft slowly descended towards the North Sea for reasons unknown and the pilot didn’t respond to the navigators prompts, for reasons unknown but possibly medical. The end result result was the navigator (only) ejecting - the F-4Ks and F4M’s did not have command eject.
I do not know if there was there was a similar accident involving a Tornado.
As for the general issue of images of accidents..many will have accidentally come across the really unpleasant images from the recent self drive car accident, we have all seen and no doubt will continue to see through various outlets countless replays of various high profile aviation and other accidents in the coming months and years. TBH I’m a bit uneasy at the “naming and shaming” going on in some of the previous posts...like it or not it is the world we now live in.
I do not know if there was there was a similar accident involving a Tornado.
As for the general issue of images of accidents..many will have accidentally come across the really unpleasant images from the recent self drive car accident, we have all seen and no doubt will continue to see through various outlets countless replays of various high profile aviation and other accidents in the coming months and years. TBH I’m a bit uneasy at the “naming and shaming” going on in some of the previous posts...like it or not it is the world we now live in.
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Apologies for deviating from the primary reason for this thread but, further to the 228 OCU F-4 loss mentioned by several others, I believe this is the incident being referred to...
http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/m...0109_xt908.pdf
-RP
http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/m...0109_xt908.pdf
-RP
Originally Posted by gpzz
Of course this is all highly distressing for the families etc and there are times when I too cringe at some of the images we have to look at across either the airwaves or in print, but the day those from above slap a ban on this type of thing is the day we begin the rest of our lives living in a dictatorship.
The simple truth is press freedom in all its forms good and bad, unpalatable as it can be at times = a free and fair democracy.
The simple truth is press freedom in all its forms good and bad, unpalatable as it can be at times = a free and fair democracy.
Agree 100%.......!!!
I have found the one I commented on, it wasn't the F-4 one mentioned but a Tornado under similar circumstances, Command ejection was used but sadly the pilot did not survive.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...58_28oct83.pdf
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...58_28oct83.pdf
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
I have found the one I commented on, it wasn't the F-4 one mentioned but a Tornado under similar circumstances, Command ejection was used but sadly the pilot did not survive.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...58_28oct83.pdf
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...58_28oct83.pdf
This one sprang to mind for me, the first GR1 loss IIRC, from IX(B).
http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/m...0927_za586.pdf
Thoughts with family and friends at this time.
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[QUOTE]Wiggy, the autopsy showed he had a stroke./QUOTE]
Accident report suggests the cause was inconclusive but a severe migraine was the cause.
An awful incident eitherway.
Accident report suggests the cause was inconclusive but a severe migraine was the cause.
An awful incident eitherway.
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
I have found the one I commented on, it wasn't the F-4 one mentioned but a Tornado under similar circumstances, Command ejection was used but sadly the pilot did not survive.
Where the pilot is incapacitated shouldn't the navigator generally be able to at least stabilise the aircraft at a safe altitude if not get it home unless the pilot is making some pretty forceful involuntary control inputs? No hints of the navigator trying to assume control in either of those reports.
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Originally Posted by david340r
Where the pilot is incapacitated shouldn't the navigator generally be able to at least stabilise the aircraft at a safe altitude if not get it home unless the pilot is making some pretty forceful involuntary control inputs? No hints of the navigator trying to assume control in either of those reports.
Last edited by Easy Street; 25th Mar 2018 at 21:26.
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Originally Posted by Easy Street
When your knowledge of the subject is so abject that you don’t even know that most of the aircraft in question have no flying controls in the rear cockpit, you’d be well advised not to comment in any way on aircrews’ conduct, let alone make implied criticisms of those who have been killed or lost a crewmate. Here’s a tip: ask open questions if unsure of your ground; they place less emphasis on the asker’s ignorance.
