TriStars to fly again?
Starting to emerge from the mists of time but wasn't it a failure to arm FLARE and also note the absence of the FLARE ARMED caption?
I've no idea why the RAF didn't just accept that there had been an error and train to ensure it wasn't repeated.
It WAS actually a brilliant autoland system which worked better than I did
I've no idea why the RAF didn't just accept that there had been an error and train to ensure it wasn't repeated.
It WAS actually a brilliant autoland system which worked better than I did
Left wing false spar cracked, aircraft bounced/rolled into a non standard gear-down fully configured visual circuit and lost 4t fuel before landing. 
OAP
Remember that happening and then looking at the damage the next week in Base hangar. You could put your fist through the "mark of Zorro" damage to the left rear spar! Then looked at the RH rear spar to find that that had a repair giving the indication of a previous "carrier" landing at some time in its Pan Am history.
Wasn't the majority of the damage to the 'autoland Tristar' inflicted during the second impact from the bounce rather than the initial impact? The crew incorrectly pushed the yoke forward during the bounce which told the DLC to deploy the spoilers, dramatically increasing the RoD! The whole event was all very embarrassing; whatever did BA think about our gross mishandling of their old frames?
Who were the unfortunate crew that day?
Who were the unfortunate crew that day?
Thread Starter
Our SEngO told me that he'd felt the impact in his office. The loss of fuel in the subsequent circuit included some which fell on a chap doing some welding on an industrial estate - he wisely stopped!
I saw the photos which were taken of the damage - quite horrifying. And yes, evidence of a previous repair was also uncovered.
On the Flying Supervisors' Course, we were given a detailed account of the incident, including CVR transcript. Which IIRC included the comment "It shouldn't have done that"....
Then there was the RAF TriStar which was being used by boffins to test IR jammers for a Royal trip to the Middle East for HM with ba. I was having tea in the Brize OM with a 216 chap and we heard an engine being wound up to max chat, followed by a very loud thudding noise as it surged. "That sounded expensive", my colleague said - and indeed it was.
But nothing like as expensive as the damage caused when someone held in a circuit breaker which kept tripping, whereupon the electrical circuit acted as a large and expensive fuse for the CB. That took months to repair...
Early RAF days with the TriShaw were indeed....interesting!
I saw the photos which were taken of the damage - quite horrifying. And yes, evidence of a previous repair was also uncovered.
On the Flying Supervisors' Course, we were given a detailed account of the incident, including CVR transcript. Which IIRC included the comment "It shouldn't have done that"....
Then there was the RAF TriStar which was being used by boffins to test IR jammers for a Royal trip to the Middle East for HM with ba. I was having tea in the Brize OM with a 216 chap and we heard an engine being wound up to max chat, followed by a very loud thudding noise as it surged. "That sounded expensive", my colleague said - and indeed it was.
But nothing like as expensive as the damage caused when someone held in a circuit breaker which kept tripping, whereupon the electrical circuit acted as a large and expensive fuse for the CB. That took months to repair...
Early RAF days with the TriShaw were indeed....interesting!
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Our SEngO told me that he'd felt the impact in his office. The loss of fuel in the subsequent circuit included some which fell on a chap doing some welding on an industrial estate - he wisely stopped!
I saw the photos which were taken of the damage - quite horrifying. And yes, evidence of a previous repair was also uncovered.
I saw the photos which were taken of the damage - quite horrifying. And yes, evidence of a previous repair was also uncovered.
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Yep, I stood there in total disbelief looking at the damage on both of them.
Wasn't the majority of the damage to the 'autoland Tristar' inflicted during the second impact from the bounce rather than the initial impact? The crew incorrectly pushed the yoke forward during the bounce which told the DLC to deploy the spoilers, dramatically increasing the RoD! The whole event was all very embarrassing; whatever did BA think about our gross mishandling of their old frames?
As far as "what BA thought" goes, I have no idea. However, the training I received with them was excellent. In later years, we did the conversion in house. I do remember that some BA trainers were envious of the amount of CT we were able to do compared to their airline ration.
Overall, we treated the airframes with care and skill. They were well liked by virtually all who actually worked with them but, misunderstood by the many who did not.
OAP
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>>However, the aircraft was allowed to fly hands off to impact, on a CAT1 only ILS! <<
I was a F/O on the first Tristar course with Goofair in the mid-70s.
ISTR it was standard practice, at the time, for us to use Cat 1 ILS runways on our network to work up the number of Autolands prior to being granted Cat 2 then ultimately Cat 3 status. I think we merely transmitted the request to ATC that we would like to perform an A/L although I don’t recollect what particular protections were put in place for our arrival.
A/Ls were a non event as far as my feeble memory recalls!
We certainly didn’t encounter any ‘Brize-type’ events!
Perhaps Basil would care to comment?
FW
I was a F/O on the first Tristar course with Goofair in the mid-70s.
ISTR it was standard practice, at the time, for us to use Cat 1 ILS runways on our network to work up the number of Autolands prior to being granted Cat 2 then ultimately Cat 3 status. I think we merely transmitted the request to ATC that we would like to perform an A/L although I don’t recollect what particular protections were put in place for our arrival.
A/Ls were a non event as far as my feeble memory recalls!
We certainly didn’t encounter any ‘Brize-type’ events!
Perhaps Basil would care to comment?
FW
>>However, the aircraft was allowed to fly hands off to impact, on a CAT1 only ILS! <<
I was a F/O on the first Tristar course with Goofair in the mid-70s.
ISTR it was standard practice, at the time, for us to use Cat 1 ILS runways on our network to work up the number of Autolands prior to being granted Cat 2 then ultimately Cat 3 status. I think we merely transmitted the request to ATC that we would like to perform an A/L although I don’t recollect what particular protections were put in place for our arrival.
A/Ls were a non event as far as my feeble memory recalls!
We certainly didn’t encounter any ‘Brize-type’ events!
Perhaps Basil would care to comment?
FW
I was a F/O on the first Tristar course with Goofair in the mid-70s.
ISTR it was standard practice, at the time, for us to use Cat 1 ILS runways on our network to work up the number of Autolands prior to being granted Cat 2 then ultimately Cat 3 status. I think we merely transmitted the request to ATC that we would like to perform an A/L although I don’t recollect what particular protections were put in place for our arrival.
A/Ls were a non event as far as my feeble memory recalls!
We certainly didn’t encounter any ‘Brize-type’ events!
Perhaps Basil would care to comment?
FW
The ILS installation should be compliant with the requirements for Autoland to be used for the landing. Things like centreline alignment are obvious problems for A/L. However, the A/L mode could be used for an ILS approach and manual landing and that is the method that was regularly used by the RAF for CAT1 approaches. Yes, A/L is straightforward if you capture it correctly and there are no failures. The complexity lies more in being trained to monitor A/L modes and annunciations and for actions in case of system failures. AFAIK in the BZN accident, the APFDS and annunciations were not found to have had any failures.
Cheers
OAP
It was ZE705, an ex PanAm aircraft. Yes, the 2nd bounce was not good however the main mistake was going round again. Also, as said earlier, the A/P system was checked afterwards and found to be "S". When engaging an A/P, make sure you are above minimum height for selection of the system.
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Aircrew manual warned against pushing the stick forward on a bounced landing - this is what the skipper did, all that did (with full flap) was stick the the spoilers further up (DLC) and much of the lift was dumped. The impact was horrendous.
I looked at that aircraft a few days later and, standing on the MLG tyre managed to put my whole arm in the cracked spar - hence the loss of so much fuel.
The aircraft was not set up correctly for autoland so flew straight into the ground as FLARE certainly wasn't armed as they'd done just about everything wrong.
Lord protect us from senior officers flying (standing by for incoming). Skipper was court-marshalled but the rest of the operating crew sat there and watched it happen - in my book, they were culpable too.
On Caledonian we autolanded Tristar and it was dead accurate, time after time.
I looked at that aircraft a few days later and, standing on the MLG tyre managed to put my whole arm in the cracked spar - hence the loss of so much fuel.
The aircraft was not set up correctly for autoland so flew straight into the ground as FLARE certainly wasn't armed as they'd done just about everything wrong.
Lord protect us from senior officers flying (standing by for incoming). Skipper was court-marshalled but the rest of the operating crew sat there and watched it happen - in my book, they were culpable too.
On Caledonian we autolanded Tristar and it was dead accurate, time after time.
>>However, the aircraft was allowed to fly hands off to impact, on a CAT1 only ILS! <<
I was a F/O on the first Tristar course with Goofair in the mid-70s.
ISTR it was standard practice, at the time, for us to use Cat 1 ILS runways on our network to work up the number of Autolands prior to being granted Cat 2 then ultimately Cat 3 status. I think we merely transmitted the request to ATC that we would like to perform an A/L although I don’t recollect what particular protections were put in place for our arrival.
A/Ls were a non event as far as my feeble memory recalls!
We certainly didn’t encounter any ‘Brize-type’ events!
Perhaps Basil would care to comment?
FW
I was a F/O on the first Tristar course with Goofair in the mid-70s.
ISTR it was standard practice, at the time, for us to use Cat 1 ILS runways on our network to work up the number of Autolands prior to being granted Cat 2 then ultimately Cat 3 status. I think we merely transmitted the request to ATC that we would like to perform an A/L although I don’t recollect what particular protections were put in place for our arrival.
A/Ls were a non event as far as my feeble memory recalls!
We certainly didn’t encounter any ‘Brize-type’ events!
Perhaps Basil would care to comment?
FW
Having come off (and then went on to), aircraft with almost zero or small touchdown bank limits, the TriStar a/l align procedure with the into-wind wing down sideslipping the rest of the approach was impressive.
I believe Lockheed employed some ex Trident designers which accounted for the amazing a/l.
One design weakness, which one of our GF colleagues demonstrated, was that an uncontained failure of #2 could take out multiple hyd systems. He certainly made the right decision that day or he'd have been up in the sky with only D Sys pressurised
Remember, the TriStar could continue flight to land on any single one of the four hyd systems and, the back-up system permutations were considerable, with 4xEDP, 2xATM, 2xPTU, 1xRAT and 2xelectric pumps (continuously rated on later mod).Mr Lockheed knew how to build an airplane!
OAP
Possible Employment On Ex-RAF Tristars
Now that I'm a US Citizen and full-time share trader from home, I've been taking a keen interest in Tempus Applied Solutions (TMPS) after it acquired the ex-RAF Tristars.
Once it has recruited the requisite aircrew and groundcrew, TMPS should have no problem getting a DoD contract to provide "probe and drogue" refueling capacity. With the ongoing KC-46 entry to service delays - and the entire USN / USMC KC-130T fleet grounded after the mid-air break up accident in 2017 - anything that can be done to relieve the burden on the USAF of providing "probe and drogue" refueling with primarily "flying boom" assets is likely to be taken up. TMPS's only competitor is Omega who has had no problem getting ongoing contracts continuously since 2008 worth over $266M so far. Omega has less capacity than TMPS and there is clearly room in the sector for both.
TMPS already has DoD contracts for special mission support (ISR, EW training and C2 comms relay) https://www.tempus-as.com/fly-bespoke-services.php
It will therefore already be known to USAF / USN military retirees as an employment option. However, if the former US military personnel all decide to go the airlines that might open up the possibility of an EB-3 Visa for ex-RAF Tristar personnel if the company offers employment on the basis that suitably skilled US workers could not be sourced in the required timescale. The EB-3 confers Permanent Resident status which can be upgraded to US Citizenship after the requisite timescale.
https://www.uscis.gov/working-united...reference-eb-3
Interestingly, some ex-RAF groundcrew recently enquired about employment on Facebook and got a positive response. Here is the exchange:
[groundcrew 1] "Are you looking for ex RAF personnel with extensive knowledge of working on these aircraft. Ten years plus myself and plenty of other ex 216 Sqn members about."
[TMPS POC] "Yes ! Please e-mail me your information to [email protected] "
[groundcrew 1] "Will do"
[groundcrew 2] "I have 9 years as a rigger. Take me too ! I was part of the team that took them to Bruntingthorpe"
As an extremely happy expat living the dream, I just thought I would put the possibility out there for anyone who is interested in the US lifestyle and the role rather than the money.
Feel free to PM me about US versus UK living generally, major cost differences, lifestyle, taxes etc.
Other PPRruNers will be more qualified than I to point out the hoops that would have to be jumped through regarding licensing etc . On the groundcrew side, I don't imagine there is a queue around the block of spare L-1011 engineers in the US.
Once it has recruited the requisite aircrew and groundcrew, TMPS should have no problem getting a DoD contract to provide "probe and drogue" refueling capacity. With the ongoing KC-46 entry to service delays - and the entire USN / USMC KC-130T fleet grounded after the mid-air break up accident in 2017 - anything that can be done to relieve the burden on the USAF of providing "probe and drogue" refueling with primarily "flying boom" assets is likely to be taken up. TMPS's only competitor is Omega who has had no problem getting ongoing contracts continuously since 2008 worth over $266M so far. Omega has less capacity than TMPS and there is clearly room in the sector for both.
TMPS already has DoD contracts for special mission support (ISR, EW training and C2 comms relay) https://www.tempus-as.com/fly-bespoke-services.php
It will therefore already be known to USAF / USN military retirees as an employment option. However, if the former US military personnel all decide to go the airlines that might open up the possibility of an EB-3 Visa for ex-RAF Tristar personnel if the company offers employment on the basis that suitably skilled US workers could not be sourced in the required timescale. The EB-3 confers Permanent Resident status which can be upgraded to US Citizenship after the requisite timescale.
https://www.uscis.gov/working-united...reference-eb-3
Interestingly, some ex-RAF groundcrew recently enquired about employment on Facebook and got a positive response. Here is the exchange:
[groundcrew 1] "Are you looking for ex RAF personnel with extensive knowledge of working on these aircraft. Ten years plus myself and plenty of other ex 216 Sqn members about."
[TMPS POC] "Yes ! Please e-mail me your information to [email protected] "
[groundcrew 1] "Will do"
[groundcrew 2] "I have 9 years as a rigger. Take me too ! I was part of the team that took them to Bruntingthorpe"
As an extremely happy expat living the dream, I just thought I would put the possibility out there for anyone who is interested in the US lifestyle and the role rather than the money.
Feel free to PM me about US versus UK living generally, major cost differences, lifestyle, taxes etc.
Other PPRruNers will be more qualified than I to point out the hoops that would have to be jumped through regarding licensing etc . On the groundcrew side, I don't imagine there is a queue around the block of spare L-1011 engineers in the US.
Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 22nd May 2018 at 23:51.
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Are they carrying out anti det runs at Brunty on them? I watched a near mint 767 with freshly overhauled engines rot away in the UK climate until the best they could do for the old girl was to chop her up.
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