Air Electronics brevet neck Tie
Thread Starter
Air Electronics brevet neck Tie
The secretary of CXX squadron Association (soon to be an active squadron again at R.A.F. Lossiemouth) is ordering silk Air Electronic Brevet ties. There are plenty of the other Brevets on ties but, seemingly, no AE Brevet .
The order will be going in a couple of weeks from now, so if you feel like you want one,
contact MAEop Tindell (rtd) on [email protected]
or me pn [email protected]
The price is £20 including VAT , Post and Packing.
Thanks ,
Dave Morton.
5aday
e
The order will be going in a couple of weeks from now, so if you feel like you want one,
contact MAEop Tindell (rtd) on [email protected]
or me pn [email protected]
The price is £20 including VAT , Post and Packing.
Thanks ,
Dave Morton.
5aday
e
Last edited by 5aday; 18th Mar 2018 at 22:16.
It’s a flying badge, a brevet is a diploma certificate and the award of a brevet would be the Pilot/Observer certificate that later came with a flying badge. We have been getting this muddled for 100 years - blame the French, it’s our worst habit!
This is what Wg Cdr ‘Jeff’ Jefford, the RAF Historical Society’s leading expert on flying badges, wrote about it:
He has written a great book that I would recommend to all RAF Aircrew called “Observers and Navigators: And Other Non-pilot Aircrew in the RFC, RNAS and RAF” (ISBN: 9781909808027). He also has published on the subject in the RAF Historical Society Journals which can be found online in PDF format.
QRs get it right by calling them Flying Badges and QR206 is the current highest level document instigating their use:
This is what Wg Cdr ‘Jeff’ Jefford, the RAF Historical Society’s leading expert on flying badges, wrote about it:
FLYING BADGE OR BREVET?
From the mid-19th Century onwards the British Army used the term ‘brevet’ to indicate accelerated, but unpaid, promotion in recognition of particularly notable service (as in a captain becoming a brevet major). A brevet – French for a certificate or diploma – was actually the document authorising such an advance.
Its use in the context of aviation arose because pilots were certified by their national branch of the Federation Aeronautique Internationale (FAI). A number of early British aviators learned to fly at French schools where they gained certificates issued by l’Aero Club de France which proclaimed that they ‘été breveté pilote-aviateur’. In 1910 the Royal Aero Club began issuing similar certificates but the British version was bi-lingual in English and French and it became common practice to refer to the document, which all British pilots (including, until mid-1916, all military pilots) were required to obtain, as a brevet and its use soon became commonplace.
From the mid-19th Century onwards the British Army used the term ‘brevet’ to indicate accelerated, but unpaid, promotion in recognition of particularly notable service (as in a captain becoming a brevet major). A brevet – French for a certificate or diploma – was actually the document authorising such an advance.
Its use in the context of aviation arose because pilots were certified by their national branch of the Federation Aeronautique Internationale (FAI). A number of early British aviators learned to fly at French schools where they gained certificates issued by l’Aero Club de France which proclaimed that they ‘été breveté pilote-aviateur’. In 1910 the Royal Aero Club began issuing similar certificates but the British version was bi-lingual in English and French and it became common practice to refer to the document, which all British pilots (including, until mid-1916, all military pilots) were required to obtain, as a brevet and its use soon became commonplace.
QRs get it right by calling them Flying Badges and QR206 is the current highest level document instigating their use:
206. Flying Badges -Wearing of.
(1) Flying badges are divided into two categories, those in current issue, for which aircrew are qualified under the terms of paras J727 and 728 and those no longer issued, for which members of the RAF qualified under regulations in force from time to time. These badges are:
(a) Pilot Current issued: Weapons Systems Officer (WSO) Weapons Systems Operator (WSOp) Fighter Controller (FC) Airborne Technician (AT) The Preliminary Flying Badge (Pilot), UAS personnel only. See para 728.
(b) Previously in issue: Navigator(N) Air Electronics Officer(AE) Air Electronics Operator(AE) Air Engineer(E) Air Signaller(S) Air Loadmaster(LM) Air Observer (O) Air Bomber (B) Wireless Operator (air) (S) Wireless Operator Mechanic (air) (S) Meteorological Air Observer (M) Observer (radio) (RO) Air Gunner (AG) The Preliminary Flying Badge (Pilot) The Preliminary Flying Badge (Navigator) The Preliminary Flying Badge (Signaller) The Preliminary Flying Badge (Engineer) The Preliminary Flying Badge (Gunner)
(1) Flying badges are divided into two categories, those in current issue, for which aircrew are qualified under the terms of paras J727 and 728 and those no longer issued, for which members of the RAF qualified under regulations in force from time to time. These badges are:
(a) Pilot Current issued: Weapons Systems Officer (WSO) Weapons Systems Operator (WSOp) Fighter Controller (FC) Airborne Technician (AT) The Preliminary Flying Badge (Pilot), UAS personnel only. See para 728.
(b) Previously in issue: Navigator(N) Air Electronics Officer(AE) Air Electronics Operator(AE) Air Engineer(E) Air Signaller(S) Air Loadmaster(LM) Air Observer (O) Air Bomber (B) Wireless Operator (air) (S) Wireless Operator Mechanic (air) (S) Meteorological Air Observer (M) Observer (radio) (RO) Air Gunner (AG) The Preliminary Flying Badge (Pilot) The Preliminary Flying Badge (Navigator) The Preliminary Flying Badge (Signaller) The Preliminary Flying Badge (Engineer) The Preliminary Flying Badge (Gunner)
Interestingly sometimes MOD call the rear crew wing a 'brevet' (or at least they did in 2012 when I last posted this 
)
)
Quote:
Qualification Badges
0712. Flying & Parachute Badges. This section deals with those flying badges (QR J727 & 728) and Parachute badges (QR 434 – 436)
currently in issue
BADGE DESCRIPTION
Pilot. Wings of drab silk embroidery with monogram 'RAF' in centre, surrounded by laurel leaf of brown silk and
surmounted by a crown – on dark blue melton cloth.
Navigator. The letter 'N' of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm)
long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Air Electronics Officer ]
or Operator (AE) ] As for Navigator, but with alternative letters, in brackets. (See Note)
Air Engineer (E) ]
Air Loadmaster (LM) ]
Note. With effect 1 Apr 03 the range of 5 aircrew brevets for rear crew personnel were replaced by the single rear crew brevet (see below).
Those aircrew who were already qualified to wear old style individual brevets can opt to wear the new brevet or retain the old style but there will
be no further provisioning of the current brevet.
Rear Aircrew Brevet. The monogram ‘RAF’ in drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk, surmounted by a crown with an
outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth. Introduced 1 Apr 03 to replace
Navigator, Air Electronics Officer/Operator, Air Engineer and Air Loadmaster. (See Note Above).
Fighter Controller (FC). The letters ‘FC’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Airborne Technician (AT). The letters ‘AT’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Qualification Badges
0712. Flying & Parachute Badges. This section deals with those flying badges (QR J727 & 728) and Parachute badges (QR 434 – 436)
currently in issue
BADGE DESCRIPTION
Pilot. Wings of drab silk embroidery with monogram 'RAF' in centre, surrounded by laurel leaf of brown silk and
surmounted by a crown – on dark blue melton cloth.
Navigator. The letter 'N' of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm)
long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Air Electronics Officer ]
or Operator (AE) ] As for Navigator, but with alternative letters, in brackets. (See Note)
Air Engineer (E) ]
Air Loadmaster (LM) ]
Note. With effect 1 Apr 03 the range of 5 aircrew brevets for rear crew personnel were replaced by the single rear crew brevet (see below).
Those aircrew who were already qualified to wear old style individual brevets can opt to wear the new brevet or retain the old style but there will
be no further provisioning of the current brevet.
Rear Aircrew Brevet. The monogram ‘RAF’ in drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk, surmounted by a crown with an
outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth. Introduced 1 Apr 03 to replace
Navigator, Air Electronics Officer/Operator, Air Engineer and Air Loadmaster. (See Note Above).
Fighter Controller (FC). The letters ‘FC’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Airborne Technician (AT). The letters ‘AT’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Last edited by longer ron; 15th Mar 2018 at 23:42.
Lima Juliet
Dolphin 125 (AL1 1975 HMS BLAKE)
In pedantry versus semantics, semantics wins in this case. The term "brevet" has applied since before the RAF was formed.
Dolphin 125 (AL1 1975 HMS BLAKE)
In pedantry versus semantics, semantics wins in this case. The term "brevet" has applied since before the RAF was formed.
Last edited by cynicalint; 16th Mar 2018 at 00:12.
Thread Starter
If you build it , they will come.
It matters not as far as I am concerned. If it matters to you , then feel free and substitute Flying Badge for every time I mentioned Brevet in the first opening mail. At different times in my career I had an AE brevet and five different Pilots brevets and now I'm fully retired, I don't give a diddly sqwat as to what you call them. The AE brevet was the only one I had to work hard for so the tie will mean something to me. The rest were a breeze.
David Morton
aka 5aday
It matters not as far as I am concerned. If it matters to you , then feel free and substitute Flying Badge for every time I mentioned Brevet in the first opening mail. At different times in my career I had an AE brevet and five different Pilots brevets and now I'm fully retired, I don't give a diddly sqwat as to what you call them. The AE brevet was the only one I had to work hard for so the tie will mean something to me. The rest were a breeze.
David Morton
aka 5aday
Last edited by 5aday; 16th Mar 2018 at 08:54.
Aaaaah! Dave, Pprune at its best.....
......name any subject on earth and there are those who will turn it into a discussion of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. 16th century Jesuits are mere beginners in comparison.
However as one so entitled - where can I get one and who do I send the spondoolicks to?
The Ancient Mariner
However as one so entitled - where can I get one and who do I send the spondoolicks to?
The Ancient Mariner
Thread Starter
Cost is flat fee of £20 regardless of wether I am posting to you, hand delivering or you’re picking up. Keeps it simple and squeezes a little more towards the charity. Postage to UK addresses only. If you want one posted overseas, drop me a PM and I’ll get a postage price.
Procedure as follows please.
Pay £20 via BACS to (email me David Morton - on [email protected])
Make your ref your surname and AE Tie.
WHEN YOU HAVE PAID please send me a PM stating wether you want a Standard Tie or an XL Tie (longer for gentlemen of the fuller figure). And add your address if you want it posted or state collect if you want to pick up in Elgin.
Once the payments are all in, I will place the order. They say 6-8 weeks.
.
MAEop Daz Tindall (rtd) at [email protected]
Procedure as follows please.
Pay £20 via BACS to (email me David Morton - on [email protected])
Make your ref your surname and AE Tie.
WHEN YOU HAVE PAID please send me a PM stating wether you want a Standard Tie or an XL Tie (longer for gentlemen of the fuller figure). And add your address if you want it posted or state collect if you want to pick up in Elgin.
Once the payments are all in, I will place the order. They say 6-8 weeks.
.
MAEop Daz Tindall (rtd) at [email protected]
E-mail and BACS en-route
There are plenty of the other Brevets on ties but, seemingly, no AE Brevet
The AE Flying Badge was the last one ever to get the proper Sovereign approval and was the one and only that Her Majesty approved. Her Queen’s Order 767 dated 10 Jan 1956 officially approved it. So technically any other that came after that has so far never had the proper approval - some have been subject to DCI/DINs but the Airborne Image Analyst (IA) Flying Badge has not even had that. All this detail is in Jeff Jefford’s excellent book.
As for the Flying Badge debate, it always reminds me of people who call aircraft or aeroplanes - “planes”. One of my early instructors did their bestto drill that out of me with “Planes? They’re for wood or where the rain falls in Spain...”. The Queen’s, or previously King’s, Regulations are the de facto source for the naming of these as Flying Badges. APs are notoriously wrong, for example they state Airborne Imagery Analyst for an IA in AP3376, when it is Airborne Image Analyst. However, ask anyone on V(AC) Sqn and it is Airborne Image Analyst.
As for the Flying Badge debate, it always reminds me of people who call aircraft or aeroplanes - “planes”. One of my early instructors did their bestto drill that out of me with “Planes? They’re for wood or where the rain falls in Spain...”. The Queen’s, or previously King’s, Regulations are the de facto source for the naming of these as Flying Badges. APs are notoriously wrong, for example they state Airborne Imagery Analyst for an IA in AP3376, when it is Airborne Image Analyst. However, ask anyone on V(AC) Sqn and it is Airborne Image Analyst.
Thread Starter
As yet, Daz is not on PPRUNE and I am relaying for him. His email is [email protected]. They are the standard colours of RAF ties plus the AE BREVET
(call it what you will !!!) woven into the silk tie. Disregard any previous discussion about it not being a BREVET and appparently it has been that way for at least a hundred years - AND - our current queen, Queen Elizabth ll sanctioned the AE Brevet in the mid 50's. None of the other BREVET's subsequent to that date have been sanctioned (blessed? ) so they could even be illegal. (Station Commanders take note and there may be a relevant order in QR's about illegal adornments on uniforms.)
(call it what you will !!!) woven into the silk tie. Disregard any previous discussion about it not being a BREVET and appparently it has been that way for at least a hundred years - AND - our current queen, Queen Elizabth ll sanctioned the AE Brevet in the mid 50's. None of the other BREVET's subsequent to that date have been sanctioned (blessed? ) so they could even be illegal. (Station Commanders take note and there may be a relevant order in QR's about illegal adornments on uniforms.)
5aday
You may find the following pictures of interest - these are copies of the actual HM Queen’s Order. Note the use of the word ‘Flying Badge’ throughout. I hope that clears it all up and good luck with the tie
You may find the following pictures of interest - these are copies of the actual HM Queen’s Order. Note the use of the word ‘Flying Badge’ throughout. I hope that clears it all up and good luck with the tie
Thread Starter
How amazing. Do you think they made a mistake by not calling it a Brevet? (A joke !!)
Thank you so much for this. I doubt the people on the Sentinel aeroplane ever conformed to
that which was requested to H.M. ie the the radio in the Vulcan or instructing the Siggies in Coastal.
But it doesn't really matter. Every body has a common i/d and likewise a common enemy.
David M
5aday
Thank you so much for this. I doubt the people on the Sentinel aeroplane ever conformed to
that which was requested to H.M. ie the the radio in the Vulcan or instructing the Siggies in Coastal.
But it doesn't really matter. Every body has a common i/d and likewise a common enemy.
David M
5aday
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The US of A, and sometimes Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 549
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’ve been on pprune for probably 20 years now, but I’m always still amazed by how some posters revel in “thread drift”!
5aday, I think this is excellent, and happy you’ve made the effort and on the part of Daz (another fine fella indeed). See you at the Dinner in May!
I often wonder whether the “irrelevant posters” would have the balls to take the conversation on at the bar?! It’s oh so easy to “hide” behind the sandbags of the internet by posting crap on a laptop or phone!! Just sayin...
Keep up the effort mate! I know how frustrating this kind of thing can be, what with late payment, the vagaries of the mail system, etc!
Oh, and the irrelevant posters!!
And yes, I’ve been the proud owner of a flying badge/brevet for 28 years this July.
B S
5aday, I think this is excellent, and happy you’ve made the effort and on the part of Daz (another fine fella indeed). See you at the Dinner in May!
I often wonder whether the “irrelevant posters” would have the balls to take the conversation on at the bar?! It’s oh so easy to “hide” behind the sandbags of the internet by posting crap on a laptop or phone!! Just sayin...
Keep up the effort mate! I know how frustrating this kind of thing can be, what with late payment, the vagaries of the mail system, etc!
Oh, and the irrelevant posters!!
And yes, I’ve been the proud owner of a flying badge/brevet for 28 years this July.
B S