Times details proposed UK defence cut options
Crab,
I'm pretty certain UK PLC are going to lose 'a' helicopter fleet at least. However, what that is depends on what is politically acceptable. My personal money has been on green wildcat for some time (as you can spin it by putting them in a hangar and using them as a 'grey' spares pool). I'm surprised they're throwing both puma and wildcat into the mix but, as everyone says, you only save money by chopping a fleet, not by salami slicing.
I'm pretty certain UK PLC are going to lose 'a' helicopter fleet at least. However, what that is depends on what is politically acceptable. My personal money has been on green wildcat for some time (as you can spin it by putting them in a hangar and using them as a 'grey' spares pool). I'm surprised they're throwing both puma and wildcat into the mix but, as everyone says, you only save money by chopping a fleet, not by salami slicing.
Pba,
If MoD is considering deleting Bulwark/Albion after selling Ocean, then it makes more sense to delete the far more expensive Merlin Mk4 fleet. Moving away from LPH / LPD, MoD is effectively saying "if we need to do LitM we'll use QE/PoW". Post marinisation, Merlin will struggle to match Puma 2 performance in many areas, costs more than a Chinook to buy/run, and if Royal is downsized and the 'phibs scrapped, where is the demand? Plonk 6 Chinooks on QE and you have far more lift than 12-15 Merlins. Before everyone throws a hissy-fit, as someone who's done live LitM and the RM AOPC, I know that there's more to LitM than just landing on a boat - it's just that many don't, and will only see the $$$ saved. By signalling a willingness to scrap the ships, the other enablers should follow. Outside LitM, Puma offers far more flexibility at a greatly reduced cost than Merlin, and therefore, is a better all-round asset.
If MoD is considering deleting Bulwark/Albion after selling Ocean, then it makes more sense to delete the far more expensive Merlin Mk4 fleet. Moving away from LPH / LPD, MoD is effectively saying "if we need to do LitM we'll use QE/PoW". Post marinisation, Merlin will struggle to match Puma 2 performance in many areas, costs more than a Chinook to buy/run, and if Royal is downsized and the 'phibs scrapped, where is the demand? Plonk 6 Chinooks on QE and you have far more lift than 12-15 Merlins. Before everyone throws a hissy-fit, as someone who's done live LitM and the RM AOPC, I know that there's more to LitM than just landing on a boat - it's just that many don't, and will only see the $$$ saved. By signalling a willingness to scrap the ships, the other enablers should follow. Outside LitM, Puma offers far more flexibility at a greatly reduced cost than Merlin, and therefore, is a better all-round asset.
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lets stay on topic
I'm a full-on Remainer but I honestly thin k this crisis has been coming for years.
The last Labour Govt committed to some very expensive kit (F-35, Carriers, SSBN replacement etc) which was much needed. After the financial melt down the cash just hasn't been there but it's been salami slicing by the Coalition & the Tories rather than face up to the real decisions.
Those can no longer be avoided Brexit or no Brexit
I'm a full-on Remainer but I honestly thin k this crisis has been coming for years.
The last Labour Govt committed to some very expensive kit (F-35, Carriers, SSBN replacement etc) which was much needed. After the financial melt down the cash just hasn't been there but it's been salami slicing by the Coalition & the Tories rather than face up to the real decisions.
Those can no longer be avoided Brexit or no Brexit
lets stay on topic
I'm a full-on Remainer but I honestly thin k this crisis has been coming for years.
The last Labour Govt committed to some very expensive kit (F-35, Carriers, SSBN replacement etc) which was much needed. After the financial melt down the cash just hasn't been there but it's been salami slicing by the Coalition & the Tories rather than face up to the real decisions.
Those can no longer be avoided Brexit or no Brexit
I'm a full-on Remainer but I honestly thin k this crisis has been coming for years.
The last Labour Govt committed to some very expensive kit (F-35, Carriers, SSBN replacement etc) which was much needed. After the financial melt down the cash just hasn't been there but it's been salami slicing by the Coalition & the Tories rather than face up to the real decisions.
Those can no longer be avoided Brexit or no Brexit
What's galling is that there was a big fanfare a while back saying all this had been sorted once and for all. Difficult decisions had been taken, the black hole eliminated and basket-case MoD planning had been fixed, with finances finally on a sound footing and a sizeable contingency built in. I can't see that post-referendum exchange rates are entirely to blame for the apparent reversal.
I also don't see how cuts on the scale described in the Times article (which as has been pointed out may well be bolleaux) could ever be squared politically with HMG's stated position on defence. They may of course be part of a softening up exercise so the actual cuts seem less severe when they happen.
It may also be the case that someone has decided to selectively leak the "unthinkable" end of the options looked at, which are always included for completeness so they can be eliminated, to generate hostile reaction.
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Interesting that no one here is suggesting the military should take a long look in the mirror. Single service protectionism, duplication, unnecessary regulation, inefficient use of assets and real estate. Lots of savings to be made in house if we really wanted but it’s easier to blame the politicians.
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Quite correct. I was also about to point out that the various plans to upgrade Typhoon to take on the current Tornado attack and reconaissance roles have not been completed and therefore we will have a significant capability gap, but then I remembered that this no longer seems to matter to anyone. What a sad and depressing state of affairs...
We have the 5/6th largest defence budget in the world. Maybe we should manage it better?
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Blah
The very obvious and sensible solution is to sell both the new aircraft carriers....to Brazil or the USMC or KSA or Zimbabwe.
We don’t need the carriers nor can we afford them or man them.
The last time we actually needed carriers was in 1982. That’s as far away now to us as WW2 was to the 82 generation. There is no military justification for aircraft carriers now, unless you happen to represent the US (or Zimbabwe).
There is simply no credible argument for them.
Unfortunately, as we all know, selling the carriers would be a national embarrassment but it would be the correct decision.
It would release funds to maintain a balanced force and prevent the desperate search for manpower.
We don’t need the carriers nor can we afford them or man them.
The last time we actually needed carriers was in 1982. That’s as far away now to us as WW2 was to the 82 generation. There is no military justification for aircraft carriers now, unless you happen to represent the US (or Zimbabwe).
There is simply no credible argument for them.
Unfortunately, as we all know, selling the carriers would be a national embarrassment but it would be the correct decision.
It would release funds to maintain a balanced force and prevent the desperate search for manpower.
No Sir, no there wasn't a reasonably balanced budget pre 2015 based on a rate of exchange at a certain level.
No there wasn't a significant and sustained collapse in the pounds exchange rate which has had an enormous impact on the ability to buy stuff, due to a sudden and large variance between planned exchange rates and actual exchange rates.
I must have imagined this financial car crash, such was my elation at the prospect that a bunch of my countrymen have decided to take this country back decades, after being sold a bunch of lies by the tabloid press and extremist political parties and then creating the conditions which is seeing this country hurtle headfirst into a strategic crisis the likes of which will take decades to recover from.
Thank god I imagined all of that, otherwise we'd be in a bit of trouble now wouldnt we...
A substantial part of "the trouble that we are in" is that the Remoaners cannot accept the verdict of the democracy that they espouse.
Which is the default position of the EU that they love; never mind referendum results, have another one. Or another. Bound to get it right sooner or later.
Which is the default position of the EU that they love; never mind referendum results, have another one. Or another. Bound to get it right sooner or later.
A substantial part of "the trouble that we are in" is that the Remoaners cannot accept the verdict of the democracy that they espouse.
Which is the default position of the EU that they love; never mind referendum results, have another one. Or another. Bound to get it right sooner or later.
Which is the default position of the EU that they love; never mind referendum results, have another one. Or another. Bound to get it right sooner or later.
That's in the imagination. I believe the majority of Brexiteers scarcely noticed when they were hoodwinked into bondage, it took many years for them to wake, and Nigel Farage to stir them and the Tories to action.
Lets see: pesticides that worked were banned, vacuum cleaners that sucked were banned, light bulbs that gave adequate light instantly were banned, kettles that boiled quickly were banned ............ after a while the complacent worms turned.
Then there are the EU accounts which have never ever been signed off by auditors. Some of us do not like being swindled and shafted overtly, we prefer subtelty.
Lets see: pesticides that worked were banned, vacuum cleaners that sucked were banned, light bulbs that gave adequate light instantly were banned, kettles that boiled quickly were banned ............ after a while the complacent worms turned.
Then there are the EU accounts which have never ever been signed off by auditors. Some of us do not like being swindled and shafted overtly, we prefer subtelty.
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You missed washing machines that washed off the list.
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For Gods sake can we stop turning every thread into a re-rum of Jet Blast on Europe?
as I've said the link between Defence Cuts & Brexit is tenuous - the only possible connection is the fall in the value of the pound - but that went up and down over the period we're talking about anyway
as I've said the link between Defence Cuts & Brexit is tenuous - the only possible connection is the fall in the value of the pound - but that went up and down over the period we're talking about anyway
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The big hole is caused by the fact that the Trident replacement was added to the defence budget when it used to be a stand-alone cost. Take it out again and the problem disappears.
The terrible serviceability rates of the E-3D Sentry, coupled to the low availability and flying rates they attain, mean that 2-3 can go. Get rid of Sentinel, which came in as a UOR only, - has that requirement ended? Lose 2 Shadow and put RJ at Mildenhall. Close Waddington (with the exception of the Creech/Drone interlink).
Sadly I suspect the money would disappear into the Govt coffers and never be seen again. Also I can't see how it would improve recruiting. A career (or job)in the Armed Forces is not seen as an attractive option for most of society due to a multitude of reasons, most of which are outside our control