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Times details proposed UK defence cut options

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Times details proposed UK defence cut options

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Old 14th Jan 2018, 10:47
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
The big hole is caused by the fact that the Trident replacement was added to the defence budget when it used to be a stand-alone cost. Take it out again and the problem disappears.
Scrap Trident and by an off the shelf system from North Korea
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 11:03
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Originally Posted by reds & greens View Post
The terrible serviceability rates of the E-3D Sentry, coupled to the low availability and flying rates they attain, mean that 2-3 can go. Get rid of Sentinel, which came in as a UOR only, - has that requirement ended? Lose 2 Shadow and put RJ at Mildenhall. Close Waddington (with the exception of the Creech/Drone interlink).
Would also need to find a home for the AWC?

Sentinel was a core programme and not a UOR. Also, the Allies love its product - currently seen as the best out there. Current OSD is 2021.

Mildenhall is due to close and the RJ det to move to Germany.

We’re tied into NATO for AWACS so we either carry on, upgrade it so that a lot of the issues go away, pay lots to join in the NATO AEW&C deal or replace it with something better.

Shadow is growing due to customer demand.

More likely to leave Creech than Waddo. However, keeping footprints on either side of the globe means that 24/7 ops can do extended day shifts each.

Sorry me old, closing Waddo? That would be a bad idea.

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Old 14th Jan 2018, 12:03
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Originally Posted by The B Word View Post
Would also need to find a home for the AWC?

Sentinel was a core programme and not a UOR. Also, the Allies love its product - currently seen as the best out there. Current OSD is 2021.

Mildenhall is due to close and the RJ det to move to Germany.

We’re tied into NATO for AWACS so we either carry on, upgrade it so that a lot of the issues go away, pay lots to join in the NATO AEW&C deal or replace it with something better.

Shadow is growing due to customer demand.

More likely to leave Creech than Waddo. However, keeping footprints on either side of the globe means that 24/7 ops can do extended day shifts each.

Sorry me old, closing Waddo? That would be a bad idea.

The B Word
Nope the RIvet Joints are staying in UK ...Fairford is being tipped as the Newman location however there is also talk of having a joint USAF -RAF RIvet Joint base

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/us-u...t-rc-135-base/

Can’t exactly fit Rivet Joints onto say Ramstein or Spang without a helluva lot of work to be done in terms of supporting infrastructure ( hence some work has. Or is or will be started at Fairford)


You are thinking of the Bloody Hundreth relocating to Ramstein with their tankers. Bearing in mind that the ‘Halls stay of execution keeps getting pushed back and also the Germans are not overly happy about increase in movements from USAfE bases and they limitations on Flying out of hours compared to here.

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Old 14th Jan 2018, 14:01
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Originally Posted by reds & greens View Post
The terrible serviceability rates of the E-3D Sentry, coupled to the low availability and flying rates they attain, mean that 2-3 can go. Get rid of Sentinel, which came in as a UOR only, - has that requirement ended? Lose 2 Shadow and put RJ at Mildenhall. Close Waddington (with the exception of the Creech/Drone interlink).
Close Waddo? Mildenhall is closing...

I think your ISTAR knowledge is, at best, dated.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 14:57
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The smart money here is obviously on a RW fleet cull. Merlin 4 and Puma 2 seem most at risk, with Chinook (and to a lesser extent) Wildcat picking up the slack. Binning Puma 2 helps free up a nice load of real estate within commuting distance of the capital, which wont be going unnoticed by the lunatics running the asylum.

Obviously, in this case, everything is tied to the proposed Army cuts. If they do happen at that scale then the argument for culling RW becomes so much easier...
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 16:18
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if Merlin goes how will we get anyone on the carriers to shore? Chinook????
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 16:23
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry View Post
if Merlin goes how will we get anyone on the carriers to shore? Chinook????
......and what happens with Crowsnest which is currently being developed for Merlin integration?
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 17:09
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Originally Posted by Speedywheels View Post
......and what happens with Crowsnest which is currently being developed for Merlin integration?
Crowsnest will be fitted to Merlin 2 not Merlin 4
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 17:11
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hey! they'll have the T45's to defend them..................
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 17:13
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AndrewN - exactly what slack is Wildcat going to pick up that Merlin/puma currently do? It's not a lift asset....
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 17:33
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Originally Posted by pba_target View Post
AndrewN - exactly what slack is Wildcat going to pick up that Merlin/puma currently do? It's not a lift asset....
So I'm pretty sure the Army Wildcat is tasked with moving equipment and boots around the battlefield, much the same as Puma - but don't disagree with you that it's capabilities in this space are somewhat limited. On the plus side we've still got 60 Chinook's to play with!
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 17:39
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Would the Chinooks have to stay on deck or are the lifts big enough to take them down for stowage, repair etc etc
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 17:54
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry View Post
if Merlin goes how will we get anyone on the carriers to shore? Chinook????
ah the carriers - those soon to be rusting hulks that we couldnt afford when we ordered them, can't afford to man and maintan them now, and have no practical use for!

Now what was the question?
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 18:20
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So I'm pretty sure the Army Wildcat is tasked with moving equipment and boots around the battlefield, much the same as Puma
hahahahahahaha - they reduced the room available in the cabin from what the Lynx had so the Army Wildcat's lift capability is minimal. I think you are lucky to get 5 troops in fighting order but it might even be less.

Oh and it has very limited endurance.

The Puma, in its new guise and when it is serviceable, is a far better support helicopter.

The AAC didn't want the Wildcat but if it goes, along with some AH, it doesn't leave a very big 'Corps'
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 18:45
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
hahahahahahaha - they reduced the room available in the cabin from what the Lynx had so the Army Wildcat's lift capability is minimal. I think you are lucky to get 5 troops in fighting order but it might even be less.

Oh and it has very limited endurance.

The Puma, in its new guise and when it is serviceable, is a far better support helicopter.

The AAC didn't want the Wildcat but if it goes, along with some AH, it doesn't leave a very big 'Corps'
that is funny - sounds like an inspired purchase! Agree with you that the future for Army aviation looks pretty bleak. But at least we'll have the carriers....
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 19:16
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Id suggest there is a decent chance the AAC are offered transfers to the FAA and RAF...
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 19:28
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Every time we cut our armed forces I'm left with a feeling of relief that we can't possibly cut any more, but then a few years later we seem to find ways to make more cuts. Ocean is going which leaves Albion and Bulwark as the only way to make maritime landings so if they go we lose an important part of our military flexibility. Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales are both touted as flexible platforms but they can't perform the same role as Albion and Bulwark, particularly if they have to provide air support as well as a helicopter platform. The loss of more frigates also seems foolhardy if we want a decent amount of protection around either of the carriers. Lastly at risk of mentioning the B word, these proposed cuts will make it harder for us to maintain a high profile on a world stage of the sort that the Tories envisage post Brexit.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 23:25
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
The smart money here is obviously on a RW fleet cull. Merlin 4 and Puma 2 seem most at risk, with Chinook (and to a lesser extent) Wildcat picking up the slack. Binning Puma 2 helps free up a nice load of real estate within commuting distance of the capital, which wont be going unnoticed by the lunatics running the asylum.

Obviously, in this case, everything is tied to the proposed Army cuts. If they do happen at that scale then the argument for culling RW becomes so much easier...
Hmmm, I’m a bit out of the loop these days, but I doubt it’s that simple. Get rid of all your medium SH, with Bulwark and Albion also at risk? Then you really do have to start asking what about the Marines. You really don’t want to have to use an aircraft carrier just to land a few hundred light infantry. Be good for top cover for the landings mind, but that’s about it. Plus, have you actually seen up close the size of a Chinook? Great for lugging heavy kit around and large scale troop infils, but occasionally you need a smaller cab able to get in and out of smaller spaces and with a slightly lower acoustic signature. Unfortunately that just isn’t Wildcat.

Plus, with all the other bits at Benson you’d have to find a home for, I wouldn’t be too sure selling Benson is the easiest answer. And the humanitarian use for RW means they will always be around, even if we’re not doing war fighting.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 02:28
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Originally Posted by Jimlad1 View Post
No Sir, no there wasn't a reasonably balanced budget pre 2015 based on a rate of exchange at a certain level.

No there wasn't a significant and sustained collapse in the pounds exchange rate which has had an enormous impact on the ability to buy stuff, due to a sudden and large variance between planned exchange rates and actual exchange rates.

I must have imagined this financial car crash, such was my elation at the prospect that a bunch of my countrymen have decided to take this country back decades, after being sold a bunch of lies by the tabloid press and extremist political parties and then creating the conditions which is seeing this country hurtle headfirst into a strategic crisis the likes of which will take decades to recover from.

Thank god I imagined all of that, otherwise we'd be in a bit of trouble now wouldnt we...
Exchange rates vary all the time. Pre referendum the pound v dollar was averaging around 1.6, since the referendum we have seen it go as low as 1.20 but its now back to 1.37 and climbing. Like I said, these rates change all the time, any sensible procurement decision will be based on some movement left or right. I'm sure the longer term value of the pound is what is more important, and its still too early to tell which way it will go.

Last edited by m0nkfish; 15th Jan 2018 at 05:02.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 03:05
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
So I'm pretty sure the Army Wildcat is tasked with moving equipment and boots around the battlefield, much the same as Puma - but don't disagree with you that it's capabilities in this space are somewhat limited. On the plus side we've still got 60 Chinook's to play with!
Wildcat is a complete non-entity and cannot even remotely compete with Pu/Me in any capacity, even the AAC acknowledge it is abysmal. It was a 100% political purchase.

Whilst not a great source, the report is broadly accurate http://www.eliteukforces.info/uk-mil...corps-uksf.php
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