Aircrew ranks - WWII
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Aircrew ranks - WWII
Apologies if this is in the wrong forum. I've always been puzzled about...........
In WWII many pilots were Flight Sergeants. The next flying rank above that was - as far as I'm able to ascertain - Pilot Officer. What happened to the rank in-between ie Warrant Officer? I can't find any reference to a Warrant Officer as aircrew. Were there any?
In WWII many pilots were Flight Sergeants. The next flying rank above that was - as far as I'm able to ascertain - Pilot Officer. What happened to the rank in-between ie Warrant Officer? I can't find any reference to a Warrant Officer as aircrew. Were there any?
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Augsburg Raid April 1942
On the Augsburg Raid in April 1942 two of the 44 Squadron captains were Warrant Officers. Warrant Officer Crum was captain of Lancaster L7548 whilst Warrant Officer Beckett was captain of Lancaster L7565.
Of the 6 crews from 97 Squadron Warrant Officer Mycock was captain of Lancaster R5513.
Of the 6 crews from 97 Squadron Warrant Officer Mycock was captain of Lancaster R5513.
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When granted Wings a pilot was either a sergeant or pilot officer. Pay in 1944/45 as a Sergeant was 13/6 per day. After a year came promotion to flight Sergeant at 15/0 per day. After another year promotion to warrant officer at 17/6 per day. Riches indeed! At about late forties were the awful stars badges but I do not remember the pay scales. When I left the RAF in 1947 I was a warrant officer. I was a pilot three - three stars - in the RAFVR, and a sergeant again when I rejoined in 1951. Commissioned as pilot officer in 1953. Cannot remember pay scales, but enough. Then pay was almost doubled in ( I think)
1955 when we, nearly all, bought new cars! Pay very good, especially with marriage allowance, mileage to work allowance, and best of all local overseas allowance. Pay almost doubled when posted to Changi in 1958, but when every six weeks to Gan for SAR, we lost our overseas allowance! Hope this helps.
1955 when we, nearly all, bought new cars! Pay very good, especially with marriage allowance, mileage to work allowance, and best of all local overseas allowance. Pay almost doubled when posted to Changi in 1958, but when every six weeks to Gan for SAR, we lost our overseas allowance! Hope this helps.
Ormeside28,
What a fascinating post. Please tell us what you were flying at the time. What did you do ‘47 to ‘51? When you were SAR at Gan, did you position your aircraft from Changi or were they already there?
When your pay doubled in 1955 was when I was born!
Thanks,
Eckhard
What a fascinating post. Please tell us what you were flying at the time. What did you do ‘47 to ‘51? When you were SAR at Gan, did you position your aircraft from Changi or were they already there?
When your pay doubled in 1955 was when I was born!
Thanks,
Eckhard
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Then pay was almost doubled in ( I think)
1955 when we, nearly all, bought new cars! Pay very good, especially with marriage allowance, mileage to work allowance, and best of all local overseas allowance. Pay almost doubled when posted to Changi in 1958, but when every six weeks to Gan for SAR, we lost our overseas allowance! Hope this helps.
1955 when we, nearly all, bought new cars! Pay very good, especially with marriage allowance, mileage to work allowance, and best of all local overseas allowance. Pay almost doubled when posted to Changi in 1958, but when every six weeks to Gan for SAR, we lost our overseas allowance! Hope this helps.
Dunno about aircrew and officers, but I finished my Fitters course in Feb.
Before that date I was an SAC on 11/- a day.
Promotion to J/T moved me to 14/6 a day.
1st April pay rise took me to 21/6 a day.
In the Aug promoted to Cpl on 24/6.
A very big change in 6 months.
At the announcement of the April increase, the OC at Lindholme took great pride in pointing out that a W.O. in and advanced trade, married & living out was now getting over £1,000 per annum!
Those numbers are subject to my brain fade. But the orders of magnitude are about right.
Re: you going on detachment to Gan.
The big factor would be you went from Living Out to Living in.
The rates of Local Overseas Allowance (LOA) were always very different between LIP's and LOP's.
I suffered the same while at Akrotiri, living out in Limassol and sent on detachment to Karachi.
Ormeside - those 'awful star badges' you refer to really must have been unpopular because very few appear to have survived. In 30 odd years of dealing in militaria I only ever saw one set of them, at a fair in Gloucester about 20 years ago. I think over £100 was being asked for them which seemed a lot to me at the time, but if I had bought them I would be on a handsome profit now - at auction, collectors of RAF insignia would be fighting over them!
As you say the system was unpopular and it was abandoned in 1950. The only survival of the system was the rank of master pilot (or navigator etc) which was the new name for warrant officer aircrew, which still survives among certain aircrew categories. Prior to 1946 they were simply known as Warrant Officer.
I once had a GSM for Palestine 1945 - 48 named to an S2 RAF, which puzzled me until I realised that the chap had been a signaller 2 which I think was equivalent to sergeant.
As you say the system was unpopular and it was abandoned in 1950. The only survival of the system was the rank of master pilot (or navigator etc) which was the new name for warrant officer aircrew, which still survives among certain aircrew categories. Prior to 1946 they were simply known as Warrant Officer.
I once had a GSM for Palestine 1945 - 48 named to an S2 RAF, which puzzled me until I realised that the chap had been a signaller 2 which I think was equivalent to sergeant.
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I hope that Danny will forgive another contribution which I gave several years ago but we served at Hhooton Park and Valley, though we were not acquainted.
After training at No 1 BFTS at Terrell, Texas on Stearman PT 17 and AT6 Harvard, I returned to U.K. in the summer of 1944 soon after D day hoping to fly Spitfires or Mustangs.However in the September the battle of Arnhem decimated the Glider Pilot Regiment. The C.O. Of the Regiment, Brigadier George Chatterton had been in the RAF and had friends in high places. He asked for pilots in the pool awaiting further training be seconded to his Regiment. Volunteers were called for but only a few volunteered. We were read the riot act and warned that if we did not volunteer we would never fly again and be put in the army anyway. So we were voluntary conscripts and very bolshy. We went to Brize Norton to fly Horsas and Hadrian’s. We were then sent to various Transport Command stations , Broadwell for me and we were trained by the survivors of Arnhem to be soldiers.
I did the Rhine Crossing and we lost a lot of our mates. I was on embarkation leave for the Far East when the atom bombs were dropped and the war ended. I went back to the RAF for further training but was persuaded by my father to leave when my number came up and join him in the hotel business. This I did, but also joined the RAFVR in Merseyside, evantually at Hooton Park with Tiger Moths and eventually Chipmunks. When the Korean War started we were paraded and told that the RAF was going to expand and now was the time to go back, so I did. I went on a refresher course for three months at Oakington on
Harvard’s, then three months at Swinderby on Wellingtons, and then to Dishforth to be a second dicky on Hastings, finally ending up at Topcliffe on 47 Squadron Hastings. I was commissioned after that and went to Kinloss to convert on to Lockheed Neptune’s. We were lent 50 Neptune’s as the Shackletons were slow coming off production, and the Cold War was on. We had four Squadrons of Neptune’s, 217 at Kinloss 36, 203 and210 at Topcliffe...After three years flying the North Atlantic and Mediterranean, the Neptune’s went back to America, and I joined 120 Squadron at Aldergrove flying Shackleton 1s and 2s. There was a Sunderland Squadron at Seletar Singapore and it was decided that they would be replaced by Shackletons at Changi. I had a friend at Coastal Command an he agganged a posting to join 205 Squadron now at Changi.
We gradually received all 8 aircraft. One at 30 minutes readiness for S and R at Changi.
Eventually the runway was ready at Gan and because of trouble between Gan and the capital Male we sent a Shack to Katanayaka in Ceylon and ran a daily patrol to Gan checking the Maldives for signs of trouble! Eventually we moved into Gan and then kept two Shackletons there for S and R and trouble! Changeover day was Wednesday, and the returning aircraft couldn’t leave Gan until the relief was on its way from Changi. My last trip in a Shack was returning to Changi from doing S and R for the two weeks over Christmas.
We left Changi/Singapore early January 1961 in the troopship Oxfordshire. I reckoned that I would never be able to afford twenty five days cruise. There were only a few RAF officers, the army officers had taken leave. We had the Sherwood Forresters Regiment aboard plus band. I had to do duties on board . When I was the duty Jo I had to “Mount the guard” with the RSM, then inspect the ship with the Quartermaster, RSM, and several others from bottom to top, ending up on the bridge with the Officer of the Watch. It was an Army Run ship. When we got to Gibraltar, my great friend was the ADC to the AOC and he came out to the ship in the RAF launch and took us ashore — brownie points!, It was a great posting out to Singapore , the Shackleton was hot and smelly, we were all high tone deaf, but four Griffons, Leather seats and a good crew who relied on each other, what more can a man/Pilot want?
back to America, and I went to Aldergrove on 120 Squadron
After training at No 1 BFTS at Terrell, Texas on Stearman PT 17 and AT6 Harvard, I returned to U.K. in the summer of 1944 soon after D day hoping to fly Spitfires or Mustangs.However in the September the battle of Arnhem decimated the Glider Pilot Regiment. The C.O. Of the Regiment, Brigadier George Chatterton had been in the RAF and had friends in high places. He asked for pilots in the pool awaiting further training be seconded to his Regiment. Volunteers were called for but only a few volunteered. We were read the riot act and warned that if we did not volunteer we would never fly again and be put in the army anyway. So we were voluntary conscripts and very bolshy. We went to Brize Norton to fly Horsas and Hadrian’s. We were then sent to various Transport Command stations , Broadwell for me and we were trained by the survivors of Arnhem to be soldiers.
I did the Rhine Crossing and we lost a lot of our mates. I was on embarkation leave for the Far East when the atom bombs were dropped and the war ended. I went back to the RAF for further training but was persuaded by my father to leave when my number came up and join him in the hotel business. This I did, but also joined the RAFVR in Merseyside, evantually at Hooton Park with Tiger Moths and eventually Chipmunks. When the Korean War started we were paraded and told that the RAF was going to expand and now was the time to go back, so I did. I went on a refresher course for three months at Oakington on
Harvard’s, then three months at Swinderby on Wellingtons, and then to Dishforth to be a second dicky on Hastings, finally ending up at Topcliffe on 47 Squadron Hastings. I was commissioned after that and went to Kinloss to convert on to Lockheed Neptune’s. We were lent 50 Neptune’s as the Shackletons were slow coming off production, and the Cold War was on. We had four Squadrons of Neptune’s, 217 at Kinloss 36, 203 and210 at Topcliffe...After three years flying the North Atlantic and Mediterranean, the Neptune’s went back to America, and I joined 120 Squadron at Aldergrove flying Shackleton 1s and 2s. There was a Sunderland Squadron at Seletar Singapore and it was decided that they would be replaced by Shackletons at Changi. I had a friend at Coastal Command an he agganged a posting to join 205 Squadron now at Changi.
We gradually received all 8 aircraft. One at 30 minutes readiness for S and R at Changi.
Eventually the runway was ready at Gan and because of trouble between Gan and the capital Male we sent a Shack to Katanayaka in Ceylon and ran a daily patrol to Gan checking the Maldives for signs of trouble! Eventually we moved into Gan and then kept two Shackletons there for S and R and trouble! Changeover day was Wednesday, and the returning aircraft couldn’t leave Gan until the relief was on its way from Changi. My last trip in a Shack was returning to Changi from doing S and R for the two weeks over Christmas.
We left Changi/Singapore early January 1961 in the troopship Oxfordshire. I reckoned that I would never be able to afford twenty five days cruise. There were only a few RAF officers, the army officers had taken leave. We had the Sherwood Forresters Regiment aboard plus band. I had to do duties on board . When I was the duty Jo I had to “Mount the guard” with the RSM, then inspect the ship with the Quartermaster, RSM, and several others from bottom to top, ending up on the bridge with the Officer of the Watch. It was an Army Run ship. When we got to Gibraltar, my great friend was the ADC to the AOC and he came out to the ship in the RAF launch and took us ashore — brownie points!, It was a great posting out to Singapore , the Shackleton was hot and smelly, we were all high tone deaf, but four Griffons, Leather seats and a good crew who relied on each other, what more can a man/Pilot want?
back to America, and I went to Aldergrove on 120 Squadron
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As you say the system was unpopular and it was abandoned in 1950. The only survival of the system was the rank of master pilot (or navigator etc) which was the new name for warrant officer aircrew, which still survives among certain aircrew categories. Prior to 1946 they were simply known as Warrant Officer.
I once had a GSM for Palestine 1945 - 48 named to an S2 RAF, which puzzled me until I realised that the chap had been a signaller 2 which I think was equivalent to sergeant.
To be all changed again in 1964. Cpl/Techs, Senior Techs amd Master Techs became Cpl's, Sgt's and W.O.s and Chief Techs were suddenly below Flight Sgt's, a rank that some Chief Techs had been 'promoted' from.
Since then the SAC/Junior Tech position has changed and the Rock's now have Lance Cpl's.
Will it ever be stable? Or is the RAF really in need of constant change?
Then in 1951 the Ground Crew rank/trade system was changed to introduce the technical ranks Junior/Cpl/Senior/Chief and Master Tech.
To be all changed again in 1964. Cpl/Techs, Senior Techs amd Master Techs became Cpl's, Sgt's and W.O.s and Chief Techs were suddenly below Flight Sgt's, a rank that some Chief Techs had been 'promoted' from.
Since then the SAC/Junior Tech position has changed and the Rock's now have Lance Cpl's.
Will it ever be stable? Or is the RAF really in need of constant change?
To be all changed again in 1964. Cpl/Techs, Senior Techs amd Master Techs became Cpl's, Sgt's and W.O.s and Chief Techs were suddenly below Flight Sgt's, a rank that some Chief Techs had been 'promoted' from.
Since then the SAC/Junior Tech position has changed and the Rock's now have Lance Cpl's.
Will it ever be stable? Or is the RAF really in need of constant change?
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Ormeside - those 'awful star badges' you refer to really must have been unpopular because very few appear to have survived. In 30 odd years of dealing in militaria I only ever saw one set of them, at a fair in Gloucester about 20 years ago. I think over £100 was being asked for them which seemed a lot to me at the time, but if I had bought them I would be on a handsome profit now - at auction, collectors of RAF insignia would be fighting over them!
My LSGC does say M. Eng rather than MACR or Warrant, although my two warrants (one RAuxAF) both make no distinction.
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Ormeside28 (#9),
Nothing to forgive, my dear chap ! The infamous "Four-star Hennessy" SNCO aircrew rank system was in force when I crept back in under the wire in summer of 1949. My logbook shows that I was instructed by a P2 Lamont (Harvards - August 1949), then by a P2 Willis (Meteors - Feb 1950). I (a Fg Off) addressed them (F/Sgt equivalents) as "sir": they addressed me as "sir". And on 20 Sqdn we had Master Pilots; they were not Instructors and so addressed as "Mister".
Google: <RAF other ranks From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia>
But in July 1954 I had a Sgt McCockle insructor (refresher course Harvard). So the wheel had turned full circle by then (not quite - the Masters hung on and never reverted to Warrant Officers).
The pay rates you quote were correct - I was a fortnight overdue for my "crown", but never got it (nor the extra pay during the next six months waiting for my Commission to come through), But as I was then commissioned in India, and paid the full Pilot Officer arrears (with no reduction for my RAF SNCO pay) by the Government of India, they wanted to have nothing to do with it. RAF accounts later took their full pound of flesh (at F/S rates) back fom me, leaving me out of pocket. Always rankles !
Of course, the whole ridiculous mess (Pilot and Flying Officers who did't fly a kite) could've been avoided if we'd just done what the USAAC did in 1947 (?) when they changed from brown to blue as the USAF - and kept their former Army ranks. Either way, I think the driver of the "four star" system was the desire of the "proper" old SNCOs and WOs (who'd been in the Sgts Mess for yonks) to differentiate themselves from these aircrew "sprogs", who'd "only been in for five minutes". Can't really blame them.
..."Change and decay all around I see" ...
Cheers, Danny.
Nothing to forgive, my dear chap ! The infamous "Four-star Hennessy" SNCO aircrew rank system was in force when I crept back in under the wire in summer of 1949. My logbook shows that I was instructed by a P2 Lamont (Harvards - August 1949), then by a P2 Willis (Meteors - Feb 1950). I (a Fg Off) addressed them (F/Sgt equivalents) as "sir": they addressed me as "sir". And on 20 Sqdn we had Master Pilots; they were not Instructors and so addressed as "Mister".
Google: <RAF other ranks From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia>
But in July 1954 I had a Sgt McCockle insructor (refresher course Harvard). So the wheel had turned full circle by then (not quite - the Masters hung on and never reverted to Warrant Officers).
The pay rates you quote were correct - I was a fortnight overdue for my "crown", but never got it (nor the extra pay during the next six months waiting for my Commission to come through), But as I was then commissioned in India, and paid the full Pilot Officer arrears (with no reduction for my RAF SNCO pay) by the Government of India, they wanted to have nothing to do with it. RAF accounts later took their full pound of flesh (at F/S rates) back fom me, leaving me out of pocket. Always rankles !
Of course, the whole ridiculous mess (Pilot and Flying Officers who did't fly a kite) could've been avoided if we'd just done what the USAAC did in 1947 (?) when they changed from brown to blue as the USAF - and kept their former Army ranks. Either way, I think the driver of the "four star" system was the desire of the "proper" old SNCOs and WOs (who'd been in the Sgts Mess for yonks) to differentiate themselves from these aircrew "sprogs", who'd "only been in for five minutes". Can't really blame them.
..."Change and decay all around I see" ...
Cheers, Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 14th Dec 2017 at 13:45. Reason: Typo
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My father was an Air Bomber with 158 squadron and on the 30 Dec 1942 he was a Flight Sergeant. He got the following promotions:
31.12.42 Pilot Officer on probation/General Duties, Bomber Command
(16.3.43 London Gazette [?])
30.6.43 Flying Officer on probation (23.7.43 London Gazette)
26.1.44 Flight Lieutenant, Acting
31.12.44 Flight Lieutenant (W) (19.1.45 London Gazette)
From February 1943 he was off flying crew, went on courses and was an instructor until the end of the war when he became flying crew again.
31.12.42 Pilot Officer on probation/General Duties, Bomber Command
(16.3.43 London Gazette [?])
30.6.43 Flying Officer on probation (23.7.43 London Gazette)
26.1.44 Flight Lieutenant, Acting
31.12.44 Flight Lieutenant (W) (19.1.45 London Gazette)
From February 1943 he was off flying crew, went on courses and was an instructor until the end of the war when he became flying crew again.
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https://www.raf.mod.uk/rafwittering/...7135E2B5D42F3B
Household Cavalry does not have a Sgts' Mess. It has a WOs and NCOs mess.
Must admit I still have a 'virgin' Master's badge (complete with 'brass' ****ehawk) along with a couple of 'E' brevets (yeah, yeah Flying Badges) as they were the finest rank badges I've ever seen (still).
The star system was as follows. All on a cloth "caudron" shaped badge within a wreath with an eagle above
Aircrew I - three stars with crown above
Aircrew II - three stars
Aircrew III - two stars
Aircrew IV - one star
Under training - no star