European Army
Since the EU consists mainly of 25 former sovereign states that traditionally either don't fight, can't fight or have a 'surrender first' policy, and one nation that has an awkward habit of invading the other 25, plucky Malta will probably be the only effective contribution.
FB
[However, as I understand, it is claimed that the UK were on the losing side of EU law votes only 2% of the time.
I look forward to reading an honest appraisal and history of the U.K. in the EU where much of the rhetoric and propaganda has been stripped out , and we will be able to assess the pro’s and con’s objectively. At the moment , we are still too close to the decision for the truth to come out . I just hope that I’m still alive to be able to read it in 25 years .
"Since the EU consists mainly of 25 former sovereign states that traditionally either don't fight, can't fight or have a 'surrender first' policy,"
MGD - can we see you make that statement in public at say 10:30 pm in any major square of the 25?
MGD - can we see you make that statement in public at say 10:30 pm in any major square of the 25?
As a slightly tongue in cheek aside:
Years ago I sat in the cockpit of the Fiat CR 42 that is now with the RAFM
The pilot defected to the U.K. from Belgium.
He said he didn't want to fight, hated the Belgian weather and the food more so. .
Finally, he couldn't stand his German " colleagues".
As a cynical German officer once asked me:
"What is the Italian war flag?"
"A white cross................... on a white background".
But that was years ago of course...
Years ago I sat in the cockpit of the Fiat CR 42 that is now with the RAFM
The pilot defected to the U.K. from Belgium.
He said he didn't want to fight, hated the Belgian weather and the food more so. .
Finally, he couldn't stand his German " colleagues".
As a cynical German officer once asked me:
"What is the Italian war flag?"
"A white cross................... on a white background".
But that was years ago of course...
MGD - can we see you make that statement in public at say 10:30 pm in any major square of the 25?
With a birth rate that is well below replacement value, Europe is doing just fine at disappearing without the bother of war.
A side effect is that kids are suddenly a whole lot more valuable, so why waste them in stupid wars?
A side effect is that kids are suddenly a whole lot more valuable, so why waste them in stupid wars?
You know I've been to museums and war memorials in all those places - and a hell of a lot of people died in every one of them fighting for their country - they didn't win but they did fight. No-one in the UK, USA or Australia had to fight door to door through their own neighbourhoods.
Your arm-chair wit is sadly misplaced
Well said Asturias..I'll just drop in a link to one of our local battles...it's in French but the pictures tell a lot of the story..
https://cras31.info/IMG/pdf/1944_bat...nau_durban.pdf
https://cras31.info/IMG/pdf/1944_bat...nau_durban.pdf
Well said Asturias and wiggy.
I live in the south of France and have lived in Belgium and France for 25 years. It is well worth taking the time to look at local museums and war memorials and to see what the local people had to suffer. People in Poland, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and other occupied countries fought just as bravely as us.
Britain was very lucky to have had 20 miles of sea between it and the continent, other wise we would have gone the same way. There was no way Britain could have stood alone with out La Manche, and the RAF.
And if you want to see what happened in some places I suggest people go to Oradour-sur-Glane:-
https://www.oradour.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane
It could so easily have happened to us.
I live in the south of France and have lived in Belgium and France for 25 years. It is well worth taking the time to look at local museums and war memorials and to see what the local people had to suffer. People in Poland, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and other occupied countries fought just as bravely as us.
Britain was very lucky to have had 20 miles of sea between it and the continent, other wise we would have gone the same way. There was no way Britain could have stood alone with out La Manche, and the RAF.
And if you want to see what happened in some places I suggest people go to Oradour-sur-Glane:-
https://www.oradour.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane
It could so easily have happened to us.
I used to live very close to Oradour and it is a sombre reminder of inhumanity, but I don't understand the context of a massacre of unarmed civilians by the Germans on European nations being able to defend themselves.
Maybe next time skip a museum and go and visit the miles of headstones at the allied war cemeteries before telling me you don't need the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and other non-european help to stop yourselves from killing each other. Remember Bosnia, when the EU sat on their hands and the Dutch troops stood by and watched genocide take place?
I'm more than happy for Europe to form an 'army club' and have some new badges, but when, and it will, it all goes wrong and you start killing each other again, don't expect us to pick up the tab with the blood of youth again. I wish you well, but if you want responsibility, you have to take responsibility and all it entails.
Maybe next time skip a museum and go and visit the miles of headstones at the allied war cemeteries before telling me you don't need the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and other non-european help to stop yourselves from killing each other. Remember Bosnia, when the EU sat on their hands and the Dutch troops stood by and watched genocide take place?
I'm more than happy for Europe to form an 'army club' and have some new badges, but when, and it will, it all goes wrong and you start killing each other again, don't expect us to pick up the tab with the blood of youth again. I wish you well, but if you want responsibility, you have to take responsibility and all it entails.
Last edited by minigundiplomat; 10th Nov 2020 at 20:35.
There really is no answer to that ......................
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
EU’s first uniform - Frontex.
They do use aircraft, but mainly drones and chartered surveillance - not sure if they have designed any wings or other aviation badges...
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...81685820915975
They do use aircraft, but mainly drones and chartered surveillance - not sure if they have designed any wings or other aviation badges...
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...81685820915975
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/g...army-rcn6vjlvq
Germany’s Greens back creation of European army
The Green Party’s candidate to succeed Angela Merkel has called for “steps towards” a European army as she set out the first detailed account of her foreign policy agenda.
Annalena Baerbock, 40, an MP with no ministerial experience, is coming under greater scrutiny as polls suggest that she has a credible chance of becoming her country’s first Green chancellor. Two surveys published over the weekend indicate that her party has pulled level with Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union (CDU).
A third poll, of 1,500 business executives and public-sector “decision-makers”, found that 27 per cent intended to vote for Baerbock but only 14 per cent supported her CDU opponent, Armin Laschet, 60.
The prospect of a Green-led German government has drawn increased attention to the party’s foreign and defence policies. Traditionally pacifists who campaigned for Germany to withdraw from Nato and banish US atomic weapons from its territory, the Greens have adopted a more atlanticist tone in recent years.
The party has strongly criticised Moscow and Beijing and called for an end to the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline from Russia to Germany. One of its leading intellectuals recently suggested that it should abandon its opposition to the American nuclear umbrella.
Yesterday Baerbock left open the possibility that US atomic bombs could provisionally remain on German soil as she criticised the “foreign policy passivity” of Merkel’s government.
She argued that Nato could offer to give up its “first strike” option — the freedom to launch a pre-emptive nuclear attack — in exchange for Russia withdrawing its atomic warheads from Kaliningrad, an exclave on the Baltic coast.
“A world free of nuclear weapons would be a safer world,” Baerbock told Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung. She called for the creation of joint EU military units under the control of the European parliament.
“In my view we have to bundle our capabilities together more strongly as Europeans,” she said. “Europe’s defence spending is three or four times as high as Russia’s but our capabilities are limited because we duplicate a lot. That’s inefficient.”
She avoided a question about arming Ukraine with anti-aircraft guns after a build-up of Russian troops on its border and described Nato’s defence budget targets as outdated and absurd.
China, she said, should be handled with “dialogue and steeliness”, but she noted that it was too large a market for Germany to risk cutting off trade......
Germany’s Greens back creation of European army
The Green Party’s candidate to succeed Angela Merkel has called for “steps towards” a European army as she set out the first detailed account of her foreign policy agenda.
Annalena Baerbock, 40, an MP with no ministerial experience, is coming under greater scrutiny as polls suggest that she has a credible chance of becoming her country’s first Green chancellor. Two surveys published over the weekend indicate that her party has pulled level with Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union (CDU).
A third poll, of 1,500 business executives and public-sector “decision-makers”, found that 27 per cent intended to vote for Baerbock but only 14 per cent supported her CDU opponent, Armin Laschet, 60.
The prospect of a Green-led German government has drawn increased attention to the party’s foreign and defence policies. Traditionally pacifists who campaigned for Germany to withdraw from Nato and banish US atomic weapons from its territory, the Greens have adopted a more atlanticist tone in recent years.
The party has strongly criticised Moscow and Beijing and called for an end to the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline from Russia to Germany. One of its leading intellectuals recently suggested that it should abandon its opposition to the American nuclear umbrella.
Yesterday Baerbock left open the possibility that US atomic bombs could provisionally remain on German soil as she criticised the “foreign policy passivity” of Merkel’s government.
She argued that Nato could offer to give up its “first strike” option — the freedom to launch a pre-emptive nuclear attack — in exchange for Russia withdrawing its atomic warheads from Kaliningrad, an exclave on the Baltic coast.
“A world free of nuclear weapons would be a safer world,” Baerbock told Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung. She called for the creation of joint EU military units under the control of the European parliament.
“In my view we have to bundle our capabilities together more strongly as Europeans,” she said. “Europe’s defence spending is three or four times as high as Russia’s but our capabilities are limited because we duplicate a lot. That’s inefficient.”
She avoided a question about arming Ukraine with anti-aircraft guns after a build-up of Russian troops on its border and described Nato’s defence budget targets as outdated and absurd.
China, she said, should be handled with “dialogue and steeliness”, but she noted that it was too large a market for Germany to risk cutting off trade......
I’ve gotta say, as a Brit living on the continent, with the way the EU has treated the UK during and post Brexit, it is apparent that there is no love lost between them. Why should the UK come to the aid (and vice-versa) of Europe should it be necessary in the future? Who is seen as the future threat? The Russians? What would their motive be? They seem to be doing very well buying up the best places to live in the UK and the EU already.
Let’s leave them to their games and concentrate on making the UK wealthy by getting trade deals signed as well as upskilling our workforce. After all, you don’t see Singapore and Switzerland constantly sticking their nose into other’s business.
Let’s leave them to their games and concentrate on making the UK wealthy by getting trade deals signed as well as upskilling our workforce. After all, you don’t see Singapore and Switzerland constantly sticking their nose into other’s business.
I sat on medium/high level specialist NATO committees for six years, and was previously a TACEVAL trapper.
NATO served its purpose but relied heavily on the USA [thank you, Uncle Sam] and to a lesser degree on the UK.
Having seen how "Europe" has become dysfunctional in recent years, surely a Europe Army would be a toothless talking shop, a refuge for superannuated generals, with troops armed with broomsticks and ADAC helicopters.and a decision-making process that would still be mulling over Phase One at ENDEX.
Risible, and UK should have nothing to do with SUCH bogus entities, just stick to the wreckage of NATO.
NATO served its purpose but relied heavily on the USA [thank you, Uncle Sam] and to a lesser degree on the UK.
Having seen how "Europe" has become dysfunctional in recent years, surely a Europe Army would be a toothless talking shop, a refuge for superannuated generals, with troops armed with broomsticks and ADAC helicopters.and a decision-making process that would still be mulling over Phase One at ENDEX.
Risible, and UK should have nothing to do with SUCH bogus entities, just stick to the wreckage of NATO.
"Why should the UK come to the aid (and vice-versa) of Europe should it be necessary in the future"
Well
a) its 22 miles away
b) 43% of UK exports go there
c) ever since Tudor times the English have fought to stop one country ruling Europe
other than that I guess there's no reason at all...........................
Well
a) its 22 miles away
b) 43% of UK exports go there
c) ever since Tudor times the English have fought to stop one country ruling Europe
other than that I guess there's no reason at all...........................
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I sat on medium/high level specialist NATO committees for six years, and was previously a TACEVAL trapper.
NATO served its purpose but relied heavily on the USA [thank you, Uncle Sam] and to a lesser degree on the UK.
Having seen how "Europe" has become dysfunctional in recent years, surely a Europe Army would be a toothless talking shop, a refuge for superannuated generals, with troops armed with broomsticks and ADAC helicopters.and a decision-making process that would still be mulling over Phase One at ENDEX.
Risible, and UK should have nothing to do with SUCH bogus entities, just stick to the wreckage of NATO.
NATO served its purpose but relied heavily on the USA [thank you, Uncle Sam] and to a lesser degree on the UK.
Having seen how "Europe" has become dysfunctional in recent years, surely a Europe Army would be a toothless talking shop, a refuge for superannuated generals, with troops armed with broomsticks and ADAC helicopters.and a decision-making process that would still be mulling over Phase One at ENDEX.
Risible, and UK should have nothing to do with SUCH bogus entities, just stick to the wreckage of NATO.
Originally Posted by hunterboy View Post
......with the way the EU has treated the UK during and post Brexit....
Who will go first?
......with the way the EU has treated the UK during and post Brexit....
Who will go first?
"Why should the UK come to the aid (and vice-versa) of Europe should it be necessary in the future"
Well
a) its 22 miles away - sadly true, but across water that has held petty dictators at bay in the past (all of whom have been European....)
b) 43% of UK exports go there - no longer true, and even when it was, included exports routed to non-EU countries via Europort.
c) ever since Tudor times the English have fought to stop one country ruling Europe - possibly true, but no longer a sustainable strategy now the eurotrash all want to be one country.
other than that I guess there's no reason at all...........................
If the Russians invaded Europe, I would pour a beer, grab some popcorn and watch the show from the white cliffs of Dover.
Well
a) its 22 miles away - sadly true, but across water that has held petty dictators at bay in the past (all of whom have been European....)
b) 43% of UK exports go there - no longer true, and even when it was, included exports routed to non-EU countries via Europort.
c) ever since Tudor times the English have fought to stop one country ruling Europe - possibly true, but no longer a sustainable strategy now the eurotrash all want to be one country.
other than that I guess there's no reason at all...........................
If the Russians invaded Europe, I would pour a beer, grab some popcorn and watch the show from the white cliffs of Dover.
