European Army
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I don't think any European Army would be something the UK would ever be involved in - not after Brexit anyway.
Those who say we will, seem to be just doing it to stir up hatred, which is irresponsible.
Those who say we will, seem to be just doing it to stir up hatred, which is irresponsible.
Well there are already all sorts of non -NATO military groupings around Europe - for example the Swedes and the Finns are involved with the Danes, Germans & Poles in various naval set-ups in the Baltic. Maybe a "European Army" as such is a ways off but there is more to European security than just NATO - and it seems to be growing.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...ense-programs/
European Union erects legal hoops for outsiders to join defense programs
European Union erects legal hoops for outsiders to join defense programs
It's almost as if it's a club with a membership, rules, subscription and benefits for those members...
Or the local golf club...............
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I love the terminology used for the great and the good in EU land and expect to see 'The Supreme Panjandrum' being accepted and applied just before the whole unnatural edifice tumbles under its own absurdity.
Blossy,
You appear to be mixing up what you want to see with what you actually see.
You appear to be mixing up what you want to see with what you actually see.
All this interest, occasionally denied, in a Euro Army (Euro Armed Forces) and other similar European defence organizations either in practice but with no announced formal identity or vice versa, has a ring of irony about it with consideration to NATO. The latter owes its formation to the immediate years following the end of the Second World War, initially called the West European Defence Union, with ourselves, France, Belgium, Luxembourg and Netherlands as the original subscribers.
The whole idea was to prepare for any westward lurch by the USSR seeing as they were settled across the rest of Europe, right up to the new border between the American, British and French zones of occupation in Germany with the Red Army on their Eastern patch. Concerns about Joe Stalin's reactions after his nose was put out of joint at the Paris Conference to thrash out who would get what from the 'Marshal Plan' arose after Joe was told, directly, that free and democratic elections would be a pre-requisite among the beneficiaries. This wouldn't do as far as he was concerned.
Next, the Berlin Blockade tested everyone's resolve, which was predominantly confronted by the US, and I will say advisedly, ourselves. Before the blockade was lifted, the WEDU members lobbied the US to join a wider defence alliance, therefore the re-tread as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). As NATO, the membership expanded to include Canada, Denmark, Norway, Iceland, Italy, Portugal as well as the much sought after, by the euro states then, United States of America. Admittedly, America wasn't presided over at the time by a character like Donald Trump. I think the EU leaders today, particularly those with ambitions about shutting the US (so it might appear from time to time) out of their security affairs, and likely ourselves now, shouldn't place too much store by Trump's America, not under current circumstances.
Ok over extending ramble over.
FB
The whole idea was to prepare for any westward lurch by the USSR seeing as they were settled across the rest of Europe, right up to the new border between the American, British and French zones of occupation in Germany with the Red Army on their Eastern patch. Concerns about Joe Stalin's reactions after his nose was put out of joint at the Paris Conference to thrash out who would get what from the 'Marshal Plan' arose after Joe was told, directly, that free and democratic elections would be a pre-requisite among the beneficiaries. This wouldn't do as far as he was concerned.
Next, the Berlin Blockade tested everyone's resolve, which was predominantly confronted by the US, and I will say advisedly, ourselves. Before the blockade was lifted, the WEDU members lobbied the US to join a wider defence alliance, therefore the re-tread as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). As NATO, the membership expanded to include Canada, Denmark, Norway, Iceland, Italy, Portugal as well as the much sought after, by the euro states then, United States of America. Admittedly, America wasn't presided over at the time by a character like Donald Trump. I think the EU leaders today, particularly those with ambitions about shutting the US (so it might appear from time to time) out of their security affairs, and likely ourselves now, shouldn't place too much store by Trump's America, not under current circumstances.
Ok over extending ramble over.
FB
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
The shorter version being the WEU and then NATO were formed in Europe to keep the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down....
https://www.cvce.eu/en/education/uni...c-ff25cf1681e0
https://www.cvce.eu/en/education/uni...c-ff25cf1681e0
Until 1993 the EU as we recognise it today didn't exist and the title was different, it was the less ambitious EC European Community, previously the EEC European Economic Community. The latter is what the British voters in 1975 agreed to, what was suggested in the title, economic cooperation. Since the EU appeared, the Brussels commissariat have introduced a single currency and have imposed a raft of laws, ok each member state votes on them, but we can lose against laws our government object to and have to accept, this isn't independence at all. This, I'm sure, is a very similar argument to the one the SNP have for Scottish independence, ie the Scots don't get the overall government they vote for. However, Scotland had been in union with England and Wales since 1707. Recognised as one nation state, the United Kingdom, for essentially defence and economic reasons. The UK, at the point of leaving the EU, was still to all intents and purposes, a sovereign state. My personal belief is those who remain, for better or worse, will become a single nationality, like the British. They will be Europeans and hitherto national governments will continue very much in the role of State/Regional Governor. However, as I understand, it is claimed that the UK were on the losing side of EU law votes only 2% of the time. To take the opposite point of view to Brexit, its a shame that the remain campaign treated the British public with such sweeping contempt, that they didn't emphasize such points, instead of telling everyone they would simply be poor and the country would without EU oversight, for that is what it increasingly is, become insignificant.
FB
The Military threat to Europe, too much history, too little memory....
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https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...ense-programs/
European Union erects legal hoops for outsiders to join defense programs
European Union erects legal hoops for outsiders to join defense programs
I had and have no intention of reopening the BREXIT wars here - maybe on Jetblast - I was only making the point that people are always saying "the EU (or one of its constituent parts) is about to collapse" - history now tells us otherwise.
Since the EU consists mainly of 25 former sovereign states that traditionally either don't fight, can't fight or have a 'surrender first' policy, and one nation that has an awkward habit of invading the other 25, plucky Malta will probably be the only effective contribution.
Since the EU consists mainly of 25 former sovereign states that traditionally either don't fight, can't fight or have a 'surrender first' policy, and one nation that has an awkward habit of invading the other 25, plucky Malta will probably be the only effective contribution.