European Army
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IMHO, "The Donald" is like a "tough guy" (using the ice hockey slang), but his field is business and economics, and the political issues should be projected on that plain (or vice versa). It is crystal clear that pressing the Europeans to raise their military budgets means that at least half of this increase would land in the hands of US companies producing weapons. As far as mil. aviation is concerned, there are no European competitors to F-35 and SAMs like PAC-3, THAAD, AeGIS. I assume that with other forces the US would benefit as well.
Even considering that NordStream-2 gas project, for Trumps it's a competition and all means are OK to achieve the goal. Supress the Russian tube and bargain instead his liquid stuff. I assume that his position in talks with Putin will be clear and simple: "Nothing personal, Vlad, it's just business. If you have a stick to scare those guys, you may use it as well, but you don't have any, while I do have
"
Even considering that NordStream-2 gas project, for Trumps it's a competition and all means are OK to achieve the goal. Supress the Russian tube and bargain instead his liquid stuff. I assume that his position in talks with Putin will be clear and simple: "Nothing personal, Vlad, it's just business. If you have a stick to scare those guys, you may use it as well, but you don't have any, while I do have
"
Last edited by A_Van; 13th Jul 2018 at 17:29.
The last example of a synthetic nation made up of wildly different elements and dominated by one group was Yugoslavia, and we know what happened when that went bang. And there is the rub, the European Union, in its drive to form a United States of Europe, will slowly pull itself apart, and when it does, history suggests it won't be pretty.
The EU is currently drinking its own Kool Aid, but at some point, will have to face up to the fact that it's model of repeated compromises across 27 members doesn't equate to a coherent command and control in a time of crisis.
However, whilst this process follows its predictable route to failure, those nations spending >2% on defence are expected to subsidise the defence of the others, including the EU's wealthiest member, Germany, which has allowed its defence capability to descend into a shocking farce.
Another example is Belgium, which having been invaded twice in living memory, spends half the recommended NATO level on defence, whilst relying on the contribution of forces from The US, UK and others in a time of need.
The 'Donald' is spot on, and the Europeans, with their contemporary outrage at his directness, have read this one very badly. It's not Trump putting NATO at risk, its European intransigence.
The EU is currently drinking its own Kool Aid, but at some point, will have to face up to the fact that it's model of repeated compromises across 27 members doesn't equate to a coherent command and control in a time of crisis.
However, whilst this process follows its predictable route to failure, those nations spending >2% on defence are expected to subsidise the defence of the others, including the EU's wealthiest member, Germany, which has allowed its defence capability to descend into a shocking farce.
Another example is Belgium, which having been invaded twice in living memory, spends half the recommended NATO level on defence, whilst relying on the contribution of forces from The US, UK and others in a time of need.
The 'Donald' is spot on, and the Europeans, with their contemporary outrage at his directness, have read this one very badly. It's not Trump putting NATO at risk, its European intransigence.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
MGD followed Yugoslavia by a couple of years and then Malaysia in 1964 and that soon split. But your premise holds.
BTW, welcome back t o the pack 😁
BTW, welcome back t o the pack 😁
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
mgd:-
Hammer, nail, head! A European Army (Surely that should read a EU Army?) will be concerned with defending the European Union, not from without but from within. That could range from Internal Security to full outright Civil War. Neither will be pretty as you say. In the former they kick in your door at 0300 hrs, in the latter there will be a mass blood bath, and all because of some bright idea to avoid future European Wars. Oh, the irony!
the European Union, in its drive to form a United States of Europe, will slowly pull itself apart, and when it does, history suggests it won't be pretty.
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Don't necessarily disagree with your point however...
...that pretty much applies to most armies that have ever existed.
will be concerned with defending the European Union, not from without but from within.
Agreed, but it particularly applies to Union Armies wherein separate states with their own politics and heritage are herded together into a super state. It needs all the resources of the centre to keep them together, but notably it ofttimes fails dramatically.
However, whilst this process follows its predictable route to failure, those nations spending >2% on defence are expected to subsidise the defence of the others, including the EU's wealthiest member, Germany, which has allowed its defence capability to descend into a shocking farce.
This claims that the UK's military spend is 47.2 billion in USD terms and that this corresponds to 1.8% of UK GDP.
On the other hand Russia spends 66.3 billion in USD terms which, out of its smaller GDP is 4.3%.
A pat on the back then to Ivan. Perhaps Trump will invite Russia to join NATO
Last edited by Rockie_Rapier; 15th Jul 2018 at 16:54.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
German Foreign Office: MoreFM @HeikoMaas:
"We are in the process of transforming the EU into a genuine security and defence union. We remain convinced that we need more and not less Europe."
"We are in the process of transforming the EU into a genuine security and defence union. We remain convinced that we need more and not less Europe."
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-f...e-fund-russia/
EU, founded as project of peace, plans military future
The mood in the European Union on military affairs is undergoing a seismic shift. Policymakers across the Continent finally agree that hard power — long viewed as antithetical to the EU’s raison d’être — is now essential to the bloc’s survival. The question is how, or sometimes if, the EU’s militaries should work together.........
....in Brussels, the Commission has proposed a €13 billion European Defense Fund for the bloc’s next long-term budget, in part to expand a list of 17 joint defense initiatives approved in December by the European Council under what is known as Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO). The European Parliament has even called for creating a directorate general for defense in the Commission.
Advocates of military cooperation say no less than the EU’s survival is at stake. “Only together, we are strong,” Michael Gahler, a German member of the European Parliament, said in July after the approval of a €500 million fund for research and development of defense industrial products. “Only united will Europeans face the challenges that emanate from Russia, disintegrating states in the neighborhood and, unfortunately, the currently incalculable U.S. foreign and security policy.”.....
The European Council in March approved an initial list of projects, including the creation of a European Medical Command, development of cyber rapid-response teams, and construction of an armored infantry fighting vehicle, to be built by Italy, Greece and Slovakia. Diplomats said only two projects — the cyber initiative led by Lithuania and a Dutch-led initiative on military mobility — have made concrete progress so far. But already defense ministers are looking at a further 33 projects put forward by member countries in recent months. They plan to draw up a shortlist for approval by December.
The Commission also allocated €500 million in 2019-20 for defense industrial research projects, which one European NATO official said would help reduce reliance on Washington. “Currently it’s all based on U.S. and U.K. technology,” the official said. “Once this will be done, EU member states will be in the position to choose between U.S. and EU products.”
While these initial steps may seem small, experts say they represent a revolutionary shift after decades of inaction.
“The European Commission has found its way into the European security and defense sector,” Chantal Lavallée, an expert at the Institute for European Studies, wrote in a recent paper for the Real Instituto Elcano in Spain. “To the surprise and skepticism of many, given that this sector has long been considered a domaine réservé of the member states, ambitious Commission initiatives have come to fruition.”........
EU, founded as project of peace, plans military future
The mood in the European Union on military affairs is undergoing a seismic shift. Policymakers across the Continent finally agree that hard power — long viewed as antithetical to the EU’s raison d’être — is now essential to the bloc’s survival. The question is how, or sometimes if, the EU’s militaries should work together.........
....in Brussels, the Commission has proposed a €13 billion European Defense Fund for the bloc’s next long-term budget, in part to expand a list of 17 joint defense initiatives approved in December by the European Council under what is known as Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO). The European Parliament has even called for creating a directorate general for defense in the Commission.
Advocates of military cooperation say no less than the EU’s survival is at stake. “Only together, we are strong,” Michael Gahler, a German member of the European Parliament, said in July after the approval of a €500 million fund for research and development of defense industrial products. “Only united will Europeans face the challenges that emanate from Russia, disintegrating states in the neighborhood and, unfortunately, the currently incalculable U.S. foreign and security policy.”.....
The European Council in March approved an initial list of projects, including the creation of a European Medical Command, development of cyber rapid-response teams, and construction of an armored infantry fighting vehicle, to be built by Italy, Greece and Slovakia. Diplomats said only two projects — the cyber initiative led by Lithuania and a Dutch-led initiative on military mobility — have made concrete progress so far. But already defense ministers are looking at a further 33 projects put forward by member countries in recent months. They plan to draw up a shortlist for approval by December.
The Commission also allocated €500 million in 2019-20 for defense industrial research projects, which one European NATO official said would help reduce reliance on Washington. “Currently it’s all based on U.S. and U.K. technology,” the official said. “Once this will be done, EU member states will be in the position to choose between U.S. and EU products.”
While these initial steps may seem small, experts say they represent a revolutionary shift after decades of inaction.
“The European Commission has found its way into the European security and defense sector,” Chantal Lavallée, an expert at the Institute for European Studies, wrote in a recent paper for the Real Instituto Elcano in Spain. “To the surprise and skepticism of many, given that this sector has long been considered a domaine réservé of the member states, ambitious Commission initiatives have come to fruition.”........
What do we care? We're leaving, it's none of our business now. That said, it does make sense in view of the US's increased questioning of NATO's raisin d'etre. Who knows, when Putin pops his clogs maybe they might eventually ask Russia to join....
The last example of a synthetic nation made up of wildly different elements and dominated by one group was Yugoslavia, and we know what happened when that went bang. And there is the rub, the European Union, in its drive to form a United States of Europe, will slowly pull itself apart, and when it does, history suggests it won't be pretty.
The EU is currently drinking its own Kool Aid, but at some point, will have to face up to the fact that it's model of repeated compromises across 27 members doesn't equate to a coherent command and control in a time of crisis.
However, whilst this process follows its predictable route to failure, those nations spending >2% on defence are expected to subsidise the defence of the others, including the EU's wealthiest member, Germany, which has allowed its defence capability to descend into a shocking farce.
Another example is Belgium, which having been invaded twice in living memory, spends half the recommended NATO level on defence, whilst relying on the contribution of forces from The US, UK and others in a time of need.
The 'Donald' is spot on, and the Europeans, with their contemporary outrage at his directness, have read this one very badly. It's not Trump putting NATO at risk, its European intransigence.
The EU is currently drinking its own Kool Aid, but at some point, will have to face up to the fact that it's model of repeated compromises across 27 members doesn't equate to a coherent command and control in a time of crisis.
However, whilst this process follows its predictable route to failure, those nations spending >2% on defence are expected to subsidise the defence of the others, including the EU's wealthiest member, Germany, which has allowed its defence capability to descend into a shocking farce.
Another example is Belgium, which having been invaded twice in living memory, spends half the recommended NATO level on defence, whilst relying on the contribution of forces from The US, UK and others in a time of need.
The 'Donald' is spot on, and the Europeans, with their contemporary outrage at his directness, have read this one very badly. It's not Trump putting NATO at risk, its European intransigence.
Heiko Maas (German Foreign Minister):-
Sounds familiar...
We remain convinced that we need more and not less Europe at this time.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
construction of an armored infantry fighting vehicle, to be built by Italy, Greece and Slovakia. Diplomats said only two projects — the cyber initiative led by Lithuania and a Dutch-led initiative on military mobility
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Michael Gahler, a German . . . “Only united will Europeans face the challenges that emanate from Russia, disintegrating states in the neighborhood and, unfortunately, the currently incalculable U.S. foreign and security policy.”.
Pontius, I'd say it's more 1871 or 800 AD. I don't want to Godwin the thread with my third estimate.
Lonewolf, you may well say that but the Godwin estimate seems to me the most appropriate of your three from this side of the pond. Right now the UK is split between those who feel that enough is enough and we need once more to confront our own national security, and those who suggest that we should stay close to nurse for fear of finding something worse. The formation of an EU army merely dots the i's in that regard. Those who forget the past and all that...