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European Army

Old 11th May 2018, 08:48
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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The whole point is, I guess, to keep the "army" under European control - otherwise you are just duplicating NATO where the US runs it.

In the long term it's quite logical to think that as Europe gets closer politically so will the need for armed forces that can act in the interests of the EU - which may be different from those of the US & Canada in some situations

How that plays out v. NATO is an interesting situation which will depend on the future of Russia. If Russia continues as it has under Putin NATO is vital for Europe. IF Russia changed, or split up again, then NATO would be less valuable
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Old 11th May 2018, 22:10
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
As the Germans have 4 times the number of MBT than France which has 4 times the number of Italy...
And that shows the issue of relying on statistics.
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Old 12th May 2018, 13:10
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Most Unions eventually need an Army, not only for defending the Union against outside threats but from those within as well. The UK is presently stuck at the check-out desk of this Hotel California as its bill inexorably rises. Future check-outs may no longer be available even, let alone actually leaving. That is when the European Army will be required...
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Old 12th May 2018, 15:10
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chugalug2 View Post
Most Unions eventually need an Army, not only for defending the Union against outside threats but from those within as well. The UK is presently stuck at the check-out desk of this Hotel California as its bill inexorably rises. Future check-outs may no longer be available even, let alone actually leaving. That is when the European Army will be required...
Is that why the British Army exists?
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Old 13th May 2018, 05:50
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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In the long term it's quite logical to think that as Europe gets closer politically so will the need for armed forces that can act in the interests of the EU - which may be different from those of the US & Canada in some situations
this presumes Europe gets closer.
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Old 13th May 2018, 08:36
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Indeed.................. a lot of people assume that because the USA eventually became a single unit the same will happen in Europe

The language and history issues are a far bigger issue in Europe but it's not impossible given enough time
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Old 13th May 2018, 10:07
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Originally Posted by Chugalug2 View Post
I think you are ascribing attitudes without justification. Can we just steer clear of dragging in the Daily Mail, UKIP, and the rest of the hate list? Who mentioned foreigners? Oh, you did of course. I was talking about the EU, many of whose apparatchiks are Brits anyway. If anything my faith is in the "foreigners" coming to their senses and dissolving this monstrous experiment in the harmonisation of the nations of Europe. On the whole they practice democracy and accept the will of their own electorates, but then of course they don't have a political agenda that transcends that will. That is the Achilles Heel of the EU which I think will lead to its eventual downfall, but the path to that outcome will not be pleasant. Therein lies my own reservations about an EU Army.
I'm pointing out that in one case you see an Army of a Union as an instrument of suppression but in the other you don't and I assume that because it doesn't appear to be on your list of 'bad' armies. Presumably harmonization is ok within nations but not between them too. I don't think that has any anti-Daily Mail overtones?
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Old 13th May 2018, 10:09
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What interests me more is whether an EU army would mean that nations in the EU would begin to standardise, have greater buying power and share equipment and what this might mean for the defence industry.
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Old 13th May 2018, 11:13
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t43562:-
I'm pointing out that in one case you see an Army of a Union as an instrument of suppression but in the other you don't and I assume that because it doesn't appear to be on your list of 'bad' armies. Presumably harmonization is ok within nations but not between them too.
I'm pointing out that sooner or later most Unions use their armed forces to cement the Union. In our case it was sooner. You only have to look at our own dubious history to acknowledge that. Later Unions did it later than we, and the EU is the most recent Union. The irony is of course that it was devised to end the long history of European war. The road to hell is paved with good intentions...
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Old 13th May 2018, 12:07
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by t43562 View Post
What interests me more is whether an EU army would mean that nations in the EU would begin to standardise, have greater buying power and share equipment and what this might mean for the defence industry.
Think it'll be the other way round - the industry will be pan-European before the COuntries or the Armed Forces

Lower budgets, higher cost of modern kit all drive consolidation -

In Aerospace it'll be Airbus ........................
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Old 13th May 2018, 18:23
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry View Post
Indeed.................. a lot of people assume that because the USA eventually became a single unit the same will happen in Europe

The language and history issues are a far bigger issue in Europe but it's not impossible given enough time
seems to me a one Europe idea is fracturing, not strengthening.

The UK long realized a homogeneous Europe with differing regional solutions to any given issue wouldn’t suit their needs. I think other nations are realizing that a loose confederation for economic sake doesn’t mean there’s common ground to allow for one voice when it comes to military intervention. It took an American President to stop the vacillating and hand wringing over genocide in Europe itself, that’s pretty damning of Euro internal quibbling and politics.

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Old 13th May 2018, 19:08
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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As outlined in a speech last week by the High Representative of EU Foreign Affairs & Security Policy.

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/...sity-institute

This is the EU fighting back against the erratic Trump administration in a way that Britain would not dare.
It all sounds wonderful until you consider Germany's reneging on Defence Spending as described in the Sunday Times:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/w...hant-cz8tc2rqz
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Old 14th May 2018, 07:35
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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" The UK long realized a homogeneous Europe with differing regional solutions to any given issue wouldn’t suit their needs. "

that's been the attitude of C Govt in London with respect to the rest of the UK for 150 years - we're the most centralised Govt in Europe by a country mile

They want total control over everything, all the time.............. as long as its in Westminster and not Brussels
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Old 14th May 2018, 11:38
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry View Post
" The UK long realized a homogeneous Europe with differing regional solutions to any given issue wouldn’t suit their needs. "

that's been the attitude of C Govt in London with respect to the rest of the UK for 150 years - we're the most centralised Govt in Europe by a country mile

They want total control over everything, all the time.............. as long as its in Westminster and not Brussels
Well, considering most of the Proles blame Central Government for everything and expect them to deliver everything from the cradle to the grave, thats an unachievable aim unless they have control of it...
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Old 4th Jun 2018, 07:05
  #35 (permalink)  
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Merkel’s Roundheads

https://www.politico.eu/article/emma...military-plan/

Merkel endorses Macron’s EU military plan

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said Sunday she supports the idea of a joint European defense force, adding that the initiative could be open to British participation post Brexit.

Merkel’s French counterpart Emmanuel Macron has been pushing for the creation of a combined EU military force that could be deployed to trouble spots around the world. The idea had so far received a frosty reception in Berlin, with defense minister Ursula von der Leyen saying the idea is “not an imminent project for tomorrow.” Merkel’s intervention represents a significant change of tone.

“I am in favor of President Macron’s proposal for an intervention initiative,” Merkel said in a wide-ranging interview with Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung. Merkel said the initiative “needs to fit into the structure of defense cooperation,” which she said should bring down the number of different EU weapon systems from 180 to “about 30.” “

With this, we will already develop more European unity. This will need to be complemented by joint strategic action in [military] deployment.”

The German leader also supported Macron’s idea of inviting Britain — which has the second-largest army in the EU — to join that force even after it leaves the bloc. “We can additionally open that initiative to a country like Great Britain,” Merkel said.

Germany’s Bundeswehr would not need to participate in all such European missions, Merkel said, and would join “to the extent of the possibilities of a parliamentary army.”.......




Last edited by ORAC; 4th Jun 2018 at 08:00.
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Old 4th Jun 2018, 07:47
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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A "parliamentary Army" sounds a bit wishy-washy.......... on the other hand the English Parliamentary Army in the 1640's was probably the best army we ever had...........
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 12:21
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pulse1 View Post
It all sounds wonderful until you consider Germany's reneging on Defence Spending as described in the Sunday Times:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/w...hant-cz8tc2rqz
How odd that this thread has not been moved to Jet Blast. And then closed.
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Old 8th Jun 2018, 12:46
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by t43562 View Post
What interests me more is whether an EU army would mean that nations in the EU would begin to standardise, have greater buying power and share equipment and what this might mean for the defence industry.
The standards you describe have already been placed into the EU's Eurolex as European Military Regulations and Standards. As such, I believe, the UK's MOD has already adopted many of them in the new MAA MARs.
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Old 8th Jun 2018, 22:55
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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The New Model Army were Jihadist in their indoctination. Nothing great about the Commonwealth of 1648 to 1660. That is why it was canned. The mob was so fickle. Like now.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 16:38
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Alber Ratman View Post
The New Model Army were Jihadist in their indoctrination. Nothing great about the Commonwealth of 1648 to 1660. That is why it was canned. The mob was so fickle. Like now.
well it got rid of absolute monarchy pretty early so we only chopped off 1 head rather than lots of heads like the French & Russians did.................... and it was a major force in the rise of Middle Class England, Parliament and English trading and industry

But you are right - it was the first army that was founded on the belief of the ordinary soldier rather than imposed by their elders & betters
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