Finnish Fighter Competition
There appears to be some confusion. There's zero doubt that Russia, the US, the UK, France, Germany, China, and basically any nation that exports military gear could and likely would withdraw support of those weapons under certain political conditions. The REAL question is whether those "conditions" are more likely to arise for the Finns from the Americans, the Europeans, or the Russians. The answer is obvious.
And this ignores the difficulty Russian industry has in providing through life support to their own armed forces in the first place. Never mind to export customers.
And this ignores the difficulty Russian industry has in providing through life support to their own armed forces in the first place. Never mind to export customers.
Obviously that can lead to more abuse, requiring expensive overhauls too often a simple example. So careful contracts are essential unless one has ample political clout.
That said, Finland was a Grand Duchy of Russia until 1917, so there are lots of very long term relationships. Finland has prospered as a bridge between Russia and the west, it has no experience as an armed outpost aimed at Russia, not even during the coldest days of the cold war.
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Moscow region
Age: 65
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As mentioned by the topic starter, an idea regarding F-18 or Grippen looks very reasonable. Either one of the most reliable companies in the world in that business segment (which they have experience with), or a neighbour (that might be transparent for them to a large extent).
And I do not see any "militaristic" aspect here at all. If they were really afraid of "Russian invasion", they would spend their budget to buy PAC-3, MLRS (against "invading" land forces), Javelins, Apaches and so on, but not fighter aircraft as they cannot intercept modern (or yet to come) missiles and munitions. Looking at the map one can easily see that Russian AF do not need to enter their airspace to strike. Are they (Finns) going to enter ours? I don't think so.
IMHO the reality is that their current fleet is running out of lifespan and a replacement is needed. Nothing more. If they have AF (and not a bad one), they prefer to keep it at a certain level to maintain a certain status.
For Russia, the best option would be their purchase of F-35. Would be a great complimentary add-on for training of radar guys :-)
And I do not see any "militaristic" aspect here at all. If they were really afraid of "Russian invasion", they would spend their budget to buy PAC-3, MLRS (against "invading" land forces), Javelins, Apaches and so on, but not fighter aircraft as they cannot intercept modern (or yet to come) missiles and munitions. Looking at the map one can easily see that Russian AF do not need to enter their airspace to strike. Are they (Finns) going to enter ours? I don't think so.
IMHO the reality is that their current fleet is running out of lifespan and a replacement is needed. Nothing more. If they have AF (and not a bad one), they prefer to keep it at a certain level to maintain a certain status.
For Russia, the best option would be their purchase of F-35. Would be a great complimentary add-on for training of radar guys :-)
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I'm sure Vlad is thankful to you HH for making his argument."
one I've heard from a lot of Finns while working in Helsinki TBH - they have a more nuanced view of their neighbour having spent a lot of time watching them
Dosn't mean to say they wouldn't fight - the Russians know they would so why bother............ taking over Finland isn't going to change any strategic variable that would make the losses worthwhile
one I've heard from a lot of Finns while working in Helsinki TBH - they have a more nuanced view of their neighbour having spent a lot of time watching them
Dosn't mean to say they wouldn't fight - the Russians know they would so why bother............ taking over Finland isn't going to change any strategic variable that would make the losses worthwhile
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
AW&ST:
Finland Plans War Games for Fighter Contenders
Finland is gearing up to hold a simulated war game to test the candidates for its future fighter requirement. The exercise, dubbed the HX Challenge, will “verify what the candidates have said and promised in their answers,” HX Program Director Lauri Puranen wrote in a blog published on the Finnish Air Force’s website Sept. 9.......
The challenge will test the mettle of five platforms entered into the tender, with the event planned to take place in the depths of the Finnish winter in January-February at Tampere-Pirkkala AB, home to one of the Finnish Air Force’s F/A-18 wings.
Puranen says the that the HX Challenge will only be focused on the technical part of the evaluation and will not “determine the ranking of candidates.” HX candidates are being scored based on security of supply, cost, industrial collaboration and performance........
The call for tenders, ongoing since January, is now in its third and final round, with negotiations due to be completed later this month, Puranen reports. An invitation to tender will be issued by the end of the year, leading to the HX Challenge. A final selection decision will be made in 2021.
Finland Plans War Games for Fighter Contenders
Finland is gearing up to hold a simulated war game to test the candidates for its future fighter requirement. The exercise, dubbed the HX Challenge, will “verify what the candidates have said and promised in their answers,” HX Program Director Lauri Puranen wrote in a blog published on the Finnish Air Force’s website Sept. 9.......
The challenge will test the mettle of five platforms entered into the tender, with the event planned to take place in the depths of the Finnish winter in January-February at Tampere-Pirkkala AB, home to one of the Finnish Air Force’s F/A-18 wings.
Puranen says the that the HX Challenge will only be focused on the technical part of the evaluation and will not “determine the ranking of candidates.” HX candidates are being scored based on security of supply, cost, industrial collaboration and performance........
The call for tenders, ongoing since January, is now in its third and final round, with negotiations due to be completed later this month, Puranen reports. An invitation to tender will be issued by the end of the year, leading to the HX Challenge. A final selection decision will be made in 2021.
With the Finns and the Swiss independently opting for the F-18C Hornet last time around, it will be interesting to see if both countries again select the same aircraft type once they have concluded their evaluation/selection process this time.
The bids are in.
https://www.airforce-technology.com/...ter-programme/
everyone is coupling something with the offer,
Superhornets with growlers, Gripens with GlobalEyes, F-35's with development/manufacturing, Typhoons with jobs and Rafales with... dunno, red wine?
https://www.airforce-technology.com/...ter-programme/
everyone is coupling something with the offer,
Superhornets with growlers, Gripens with GlobalEyes, F-35's with development/manufacturing, Typhoons with jobs and Rafales with... dunno, red wine?
Latest news: Boeing announced today that their offer includes option to buy Loyal Wingman drones on top of the 64 Super hornets/Growlers, all within the budget.
So as LM announced earlier that their offer is up to 64 F35's within 10bn€ (in essence offering F35's on the same price range with 4th gen competitors), Boeing is matching the raise. My uneducated guess is that Boeing is trying to avoid the Swiss decision of buying F35's at all costs.
This is evolving to be rather interesting. The winner is to be announced later this year.
So as LM announced earlier that their offer is up to 64 F35's within 10bn€ (in essence offering F35's on the same price range with 4th gen competitors), Boeing is matching the raise. My uneducated guess is that Boeing is trying to avoid the Swiss decision of buying F35's at all costs.
This is evolving to be rather interesting. The winner is to be announced later this year.
Fresh off the local press: the Finnish Defence Forces will recommend the F35 to the MoD to be the next fast jet for the Finnish Air Force.
The recommendation is based on capability, long life span beyond 2060, counter purchases and *dramaric drumming here*... the costs of purchase and use.
To recount: up to 64 airframes with price cap of 10 billion euros and maximum annual operating costs of 250 million euros.
Whats next? The recommendation is presented by MoD to the Government, which has the final word on the matter. However, I would be amazed if the politicians would walk over the pros involved in the process for nearly a decade.
Once the government has stamped the decision, the first one to know is the government of the selling country, ie. U.S. government, and then made public. Afterwards there will be more info on the evaluation process and how different vendors coped.
Short version: based on news today the FDF recommends the F35, final decision before christmas.
The recommendation is based on capability, long life span beyond 2060, counter purchases and *dramaric drumming here*... the costs of purchase and use.
To recount: up to 64 airframes with price cap of 10 billion euros and maximum annual operating costs of 250 million euros.
Whats next? The recommendation is presented by MoD to the Government, which has the final word on the matter. However, I would be amazed if the politicians would walk over the pros involved in the process for nearly a decade.
Once the government has stamped the decision, the first one to know is the government of the selling country, ie. U.S. government, and then made public. Afterwards there will be more info on the evaluation process and how different vendors coped.
Short version: based on news today the FDF recommends the F35, final decision before christmas.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Jungle
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fresh off the local press: the Finnish Defence Forces will recommend the F35 to the MoD to be the next fast jet for the Finnish Air Force.
The recommendation is based on capability, long life span beyond 2060, counter purchases and *dramaric drumming here*... the costs of purchase and use.
To recount: up to 64 airframes with price cap of 10 billion euros and maximum annual operating costs of 250 million euros.
Whats next? The recommendation is presented by MoD to the Government, which has the final word on the matter. However, I would be amazed if the politicians would walk over the pros involved in the process for nearly a decade.
Once the government has stamped the decision, the first one to know is the government of the selling country, ie. U.S. government, and then made public. Afterwards there will be more info on the evaluation process and how different vendors coped.
Short version: based on news today the FDF recommends the F35, final decision before christmas.
The recommendation is based on capability, long life span beyond 2060, counter purchases and *dramaric drumming here*... the costs of purchase and use.
To recount: up to 64 airframes with price cap of 10 billion euros and maximum annual operating costs of 250 million euros.
Whats next? The recommendation is presented by MoD to the Government, which has the final word on the matter. However, I would be amazed if the politicians would walk over the pros involved in the process for nearly a decade.
Once the government has stamped the decision, the first one to know is the government of the selling country, ie. U.S. government, and then made public. Afterwards there will be more info on the evaluation process and how different vendors coped.
Short version: based on news today the FDF recommends the F35, final decision before christmas.
The aim260 has never been mentioned (how does one offer something that does not exist). But as the aim120 is not mentioned either, most probable answer is that the aim260 is bundled along with the offer, one way or another. And with both US offers.
What is noteworthy though is that Typhoon and Rafale did not meet the tender requirements in their final offers! In the end there were only F35, Super Hornet and Gripen in between which the choice was made.
it is for now unclear in which categories exactly the Typhoon and Rafale did not meet the tender requirements, expecting that info to be available later.
it is for now unclear in which categories exactly the Typhoon and Rafale did not meet the tender requirements, expecting that info to be available later.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,575
Likes: 0
Received 51 Likes
on
45 Posts
Finnish Air Force Press Release:
The Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II is Finland’s next multi-role fighter - The Finnish Air Force (ilmavoimat.fi)
The Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II is Finland’s next multi-role fighter - The Finnish Air Force (ilmavoimat.fi)
