Argentinean Submarine down - USN rescue team mobilised
BBC now reporting the grim news.....
San Juan submarine: 'Explosion' dashes crew survival hopes - BBC News
San Juan submarine: 'Explosion' dashes crew survival hopes - BBC News
If implosion, it would have be off the continental shelf in deep water
I was hoping and hanging on for a miracle here. So sorry to hear this news.
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Curtin University researchers have been examining a low-frequency underwater sound signal that could have resulted from Malaysian Airlines Flight MH370.
The signal, which was picked up by underwater sound recorders off Rottnest Island just after 1:30 am UTC on the 8th March, could have resulted from Flight MH370 crashing into the Indian Ocean but could also have originated from a natural event, such as a small earth tremor.
However, there are large uncertainties in the estimate and it appears it is not compatible with the satellite ‘handshake’ data transmitted from the aircraft, which is currently considered the most reliable source of information.
Scientists from Curtin’s Centre for Marine Science and Technology along with colleagues from the United Nations’ Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organisation (CTBTO) and Geoscience Australia have been involved in the search for sounds that might help with search efforts.
The signal, which was picked up by underwater sound recorders off Rottnest Island just after 1:30 am UTC on the 8th March, could have resulted from Flight MH370 crashing into the Indian Ocean but could also have originated from a natural event, such as a small earth tremor.
However, there are large uncertainties in the estimate and it appears it is not compatible with the satellite ‘handshake’ data transmitted from the aircraft, which is currently considered the most reliable source of information.
Scientists from Curtin’s Centre for Marine Science and Technology along with colleagues from the United Nations’ Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organisation (CTBTO) and Geoscience Australia have been involved in the search for sounds that might help with search efforts.
Further analysis determined that the event was probably a false lead:
The Australian team was able to confirm their finding with help from another organization interested in undersea acoustic anomalies, the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organization, which operates a global network of seismic detectors and other instruments designed to hunt illegal underwater nuke testing. Unlike the Curtin team's equipment, the "CTBTO's stations have two sets of three hydrophones separated by several kilometres, which—like a pair of human ears—allow listeners to get a fix on a sound's direction to within 0.5 degrees," according to a post at nature.com.
The anomalous signal first discovered in June now appears to be a false lead, according to an update in Nature. With help from additional data collected at a different sensor, it now seems much more likely that the crashing sound was geologic in origin. The signal probably originated somewhere along the Carlberg Ridge, which extends from near the Horn of Africa northeast almost to India. Rather than an airliner impacting the ocean surface, the sound was more likely "caused by an earthquake, underwater landslide, or volcanic eruption," Duncan told nature.com last week, effectively confirming the signal as a dead-end.
The anomalous signal first discovered in June now appears to be a false lead, according to an update in Nature. With help from additional data collected at a different sensor, it now seems much more likely that the crashing sound was geologic in origin. The signal probably originated somewhere along the Carlberg Ridge, which extends from near the Horn of Africa northeast almost to India. Rather than an airliner impacting the ocean surface, the sound was more likely "caused by an earthquake, underwater landslide, or volcanic eruption," Duncan told nature.com last week, effectively confirming the signal as a dead-end.
Kinda reminds me of the Vela satellite double flash incident in 1979 which at the time was deemed publically to be a false alert:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_Incident
Anyway, with the current missing sub there is probably closely held acoustic data from SOSUS arrays and undersea platforms that may be shared discreetly to aid in the search and investigation.
What is the design crush depth for this type of Submarine?
When the wreckage is found....and it will be....ROV's will be able to determine if it was an explosion or an implosion based upon the forensic examination of the hull rupture(s) I would assume.
The Sea is an unforgiving thing.....sad news.
When the wreckage is found....and it will be....ROV's will be able to determine if it was an explosion or an implosion based upon the forensic examination of the hull rupture(s) I would assume.
The Sea is an unforgiving thing.....sad news.
The Sea is an unforgiving thing
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the Lord, and his wonders in the deep.
For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.
They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.
They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wit's end.
Then they cry unto the Lord in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses.
He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.
Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven.
Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
These see the works of the Lord, and his wonders in the deep.
For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.
They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.
They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wit's end.
Then they cry unto the Lord in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses.
He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.
Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven.
Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
Thanks a lot. We (the average Argentine) sincerely appreciate the help of all the countries navies / air forces and, also, the condolences of people all over the world. Thanks really, this is a very sad moment of the country. And for me personally.
About the torpedo load, it is classified info, but in the last pictures of the boat (in Ushuaia Naval Base) you could see one SST-4 torpedo in the torpedo room. So you could assume the sub has at least two torpedoes.
Regards,
About the torpedo load, it is classified info, but in the last pictures of the boat (in Ushuaia Naval Base) you could see one SST-4 torpedo in the torpedo room. So you could assume the sub has at least two torpedoes.
Regards,
Suspicion breeds confidence
I can shed some light on this. The SST-4 IS A German torpedo of the same generation as Tigerfish and just as unreliable. Electrically powered and for anti surface ship only. Normal load out is 18 fish.
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I don't believe for one second that the issues of when it deploys automatically can't be overcome with today's technology. And false alarms are actually very common place for EPIRB activiation on other platforms such as Yachts, ships, etc.
Why was MH370 EPIRB never detected?
Any kind of catastrophic end for an aircraft should, simply trigger the EPIRB release that will be detected by satellite giving it's crash position.
This never happened for MH370.
This has happened with other commercial and military aircraft, notably some of the North sea helicopter crashes.
It seems to me that the current system of EPIRBS on aircraft and now perhaps Subs is fatally flawed and needs urgently reviewing.
Why was MH370 EPIRB never detected?
Any kind of catastrophic end for an aircraft should, simply trigger the EPIRB release that will be detected by satellite giving it's crash position.
This never happened for MH370.
This has happened with other commercial and military aircraft, notably some of the North sea helicopter crashes.
It seems to me that the current system of EPIRBS on aircraft and now perhaps Subs is fatally flawed and needs urgently reviewing.
Manually - yes, it's already been reported that the submarine has 2 EPIRBS.
The problem with an automatic system is, how does it "know" something disastrous has happened? It needs to be sufficiently self-contained to continue working in the event of a major systems failure onboard the submarine, yet well enough integrated to be able to figure out when to deploy. Even if you solve those non-trivial problems, the consequences of "false positive" deployment are very serious, even in peacetime.
Best wishes and hopes to those onboard, and to those engaged in the SAR operation, for a successful outcome.
The problem with an automatic system is, how does it "know" something disastrous has happened? It needs to be sufficiently self-contained to continue working in the event of a major systems failure onboard the submarine, yet well enough integrated to be able to figure out when to deploy. Even if you solve those non-trivial problems, the consequences of "false positive" deployment are very serious, even in peacetime.
Best wishes and hopes to those onboard, and to those engaged in the SAR operation, for a successful outcome.
What if an automated EPIRB accidentally deploys on a SSBN? Oops, that's your nuclear deterrent compromised, especially if your adversary is then able to home in and start capturing your acoustic signature. What if you've got a SSN snooping around somewhere it shouldn't be? Again, an accidental EPIRB deployment is going to be a pretty big deal.
And for what benefit? If the San Juan incident is what it's starting to look like, it seems unlikely that an automatically-deployed EPIRB would have done the crew much good anyway...
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Pasta, thanks I'm very aware of submarine ops and there need for secrecy and stealth both in peace and conflict.
There must still be a way to allow for automatic release that is secure enough for one to not to just fall off and self deploy!
And yes in this case it may seem unlikely that any kind of rescue would have been possible, however knowing the exact location of the distress would have saved a lot of effort and risk to a huge search force mustered from all over the world.
Having an accurate last known position is vital for not just saving lives but saving time, money and risk to others.
There must still be a way to allow for automatic release that is secure enough for one to not to just fall off and self deploy!
And yes in this case it may seem unlikely that any kind of rescue would have been possible, however knowing the exact location of the distress would have saved a lot of effort and risk to a huge search force mustered from all over the world.
Having an accurate last known position is vital for not just saving lives but saving time, money and risk to others.
Having been affiliated with the US Navy for a while and developing admiration for Submariners in particular as a result of coming to know quite a few of them....starting with Diesel Boaters who during the time of a Nuclear Submarine Force era were a special breed all to themselves....it is times like this that makes one pause to consider the tragedy of the loss of a Boat and Crew.
It matters not which Navy....as all who venture out upon and under the Oceans are bound by shared experiences and dangers.
I pray the families, friends, and fellows of those lost find peace as they grieve for those who perished in this tragedy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKMEl4HU0fA
It matters not which Navy....as all who venture out upon and under the Oceans are bound by shared experiences and dangers.
I pray the families, friends, and fellows of those lost find peace as they grieve for those who perished in this tragedy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKMEl4HU0fA
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Having been affiliated with the US Navy for a while and developing admiration for Submariners in particular as a result of coming to know quite a few of them....starting with Diesel Boaters who during the time of a Nuclear Submarine Force era were a special breed all to themselves....it is times like this that makes one pause to consider the tragedy of the loss of a Boat and Crew.
It matters not which Navy....as all who venture out upon and under the Oceans are bound by shared experiences and dangers.
I pray the families, friends, and fellows of those lost find peace as they grieve for those who perished in this tragedy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKMEl4HU0fA
It matters not which Navy....as all who venture out upon and under the Oceans are bound by shared experiences and dangers.
I pray the families, friends, and fellows of those lost find peace as they grieve for those who perished in this tragedy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKMEl4HU0fA
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Is there any chance that the explosion detected does not necessarily mean the terrible end for the sub crew?
If not, sincere condolences to families, friends and colleagues.
If not, sincere condolences to families, friends and colleagues.
I pray the families, friends, and fellows of those lost find peace as they grieve for those who perished in this tragedy.
I'm deeply saddened by this tragic event.