New big German-French Fighter Bomber under development
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In the UK, if one forgets (thankfully) about BAe, the only company with design and construction capability is Bombardier. In the light of the Boeing contretemps, whether the government might not think in terms of setting Bombardier the task (if they were willing to undertake it) of designing our own future attack/bomber. We've done all this in the past, in fact leading the technology of the day. There is fundamentally no reason why we couldn't do it again, and no reason why we couldn't afford it. The only reason that I can think of to prevent this is Bombardier's willingness to take the step of hiring extra design staff and doing some upgrade training of shop floor staff. The electronics factor is major, but again, I believe it is not outside our capabilities. Always provided that a very hard-headed approach was taken by MoD on schedules and budget .... and probably keeping senior service staff out of it after a given point of design. I realise the mere suggestion will cause lots of sucking of teeth and shaking of heads. However I have advised government on a number of high tech projects in the past and I believe that the many hurdles can be jumped. The only pause I have is whether Bombardier would take the leap and could raise the necessary finance (although there is no reason why the government wouldn't foot the R & D bill at least initially or in part).
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OK, I'll bite. Your profile states that you have experience as a banker. Assuming this becomes a Tri-National procurement programme (placed by OCCAR?), who would you expect to underwrite the risks associated with contracting with an industrial partner with very little recent, real world experience of the design, integration and manufacture of a military fast jet?
From my perspective, I can't see the other two nations being happy to take the risk onboard (why should they?) and the other two industrial parties would be more concerned with protecting their own profitability. I'm not aware of Bombardier's capitalisation, but Markets do take a dim view of companies carrying too much risk on their balance sheet. If MOD carries the risk, there could be accusations of unfair competition...
EAP
From my perspective, I can't see the other two nations being happy to take the risk onboard (why should they?) and the other two industrial parties would be more concerned with protecting their own profitability. I'm not aware of Bombardier's capitalisation, but Markets do take a dim view of companies carrying too much risk on their balance sheet. If MOD carries the risk, there could be accusations of unfair competition...
EAP
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Unfair competition - from whom? The idea is to specifically ask one company to do a job, so if MoD chooses to underwrite the initial phase, so be it. I agree that Bombardier has no fast jet experience, but there are one or two possible partners who aren't French, German or American that I can think of who do have experience. Even going to Sweden for design and management and letting Bombardier just do building would work.
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Roughly speaking, if a government agency is willing to provide something to a company which gives them a significant business benefit (such as a far healthier balance sheet), most of the other companies in that sector would state that if its good enough for one company, its good enough for us all; we want you to underwrite our risks too.
Refusing to provide that benefit across the board is often construed as 'unfair competition'. The EU (or WTO if you prefer) have rules about that type of practice.
EAP
Refusing to provide that benefit across the board is often construed as 'unfair competition'. The EU (or WTO if you prefer) have rules about that type of practice.
EAP
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I think the Brits would have been part of this project wouldn't it be for Brexit.
Maybe UK suppliers can be in the supply chain.
No doubt the RAF would be welcome to buy them.
Unless the population changes its mind anytime soon, which seems unlikely.
Maybe UK suppliers can be in the supply chain.
No doubt the RAF would be welcome to buy them.
Unless the population changes its mind anytime soon, which seems unlikely.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Unless the population changes its mind anytime soon, which seems unlikely.
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If we are specifying, ordering, buying and building for our own Air Force, WTO rules just don't have anything to do with it. If the government issues a specification for an aircraft, it may well be that it is necessary for the government to part fund the necessary R & D. The point isn't about our companies being in the supply chain for a foreign aircraft, the point is about being in total control of what kit we buy for our needs and not being reliant on foreign suppliers. Now we can all recite deplorable failures on the part of British companies when supplying stuff for us, not least BAe, but having control and not having big brother America decide if we can be trusted with their precious technology is important, that kind of thing goes right back to the Norden bombsight.
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I think Eurofighter, NH90 showed a variety of national requirements and changing political interests can lead to suboptimization, delays, cost escalations. Keeping it under control of 2 determined nations might keep things simple & affordable.
Ensuring long term indepence is also promoted.
https://www.expatica.com/de/news/cou...s_1525235.html
Ensuring long term indepence is also promoted.
https://www.expatica.com/de/news/cou...s_1525235.html
This project does not pass the laugh test.
Germany and France are struggling with aging populations and unintegrated minorities, not foreign military threats (unless the Brexit goes totally haywire).
If the F-35 costs a trillion plus, what price a much larger high performance stealth strike aircraft program?
It seems deeply implausible that the military leadership is so out of touch that it will sacrifice their slender resources on this cuckoo.
Germany and France are struggling with aging populations and unintegrated minorities, not foreign military threats (unless the Brexit goes totally haywire).
If the F-35 costs a trillion plus, what price a much larger high performance stealth strike aircraft program?
It seems deeply implausible that the military leadership is so out of touch that it will sacrifice their slender resources on this cuckoo.
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This project does not pass the laugh test.
Germany and France are struggling with aging populations and unintegrated minorities, not foreign military threats (unless the Brexit goes totally haywire).
If the F-35 costs a trillion plus, what price a much larger high performance stealth strike aircraft program?
It seems deeply implausible that the military leadership is so out of touch that it will sacrifice their slender resources on this cuckoo.
Germany and France are struggling with aging populations and unintegrated minorities, not foreign military threats (unless the Brexit goes totally haywire).
If the F-35 costs a trillion plus, what price a much larger high performance stealth strike aircraft program?
It seems deeply implausible that the military leadership is so out of touch that it will sacrifice their slender resources on this cuckoo.
https://www.thenation.com/article/th...uropean-union/
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The French have long history of wanting majority stake in such projects without necessarily making majority contributions so good luck with that. What scenario leaves Germany want/needing a dedicated long-range bomber in 2035?
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If we consider the F35 to be the equivalent of the F15 /Tornado/Typhoon (particularly in cost) - the next big project is the F16 replacement , in terms of cost (hence quantity) and exportability.
An individual country could do that especially if the airframe was tailorable for alternate engines and systems.
"Exportability" and "tailorable" do not seem to be genuine words and my sentences seem to be under the influence as well today !
An individual country could do that especially if the airframe was tailorable for alternate engines and systems.
"Exportability" and "tailorable" do not seem to be genuine words and my sentences seem to be under the influence as well today !
As with any design project you start with a specific objective, in this case a specific threat scenario. Makes me wonder what the Germans and French see as their most likely type of conflict that would require such an aircraft. Reminds me of a fifth gen (RAF) Buccaneer, and we know what they were intended to do.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
If we consider the F35 to be the equivalent of the F15 /Tornado/Typhoon (particularly in cost) - the next big project is the F16 replacement , in terms of cost (hence quantity) and exportability.
The next generation USAF fighter, the PCA, is the high end of the high/low mix and is the planned F-22 replacement....
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