Quitting before IOT
how lucky are you?
I spent my childhood wanting to fly in the RAF. Air Training Corps at 13 through to 18, gliding wings and passed all the aptitude tests for fast jet at Biggin Hill but failed the eyesight. All I ever wanted to do was join the RAF and they wouldn't even let me fly at UAS because they were pandering to people like you with no commitment and good eyesight.
I went to University planning to go into the RAF in a ground role (Supply and Movements) but after three years at Uni, I went on IOT at Cranwell and Voluntarily Withdrew after 4 weeks.
There was no need to join an organisation where I had to do as I was told, without question, even if that meant getting killed to satisfy the whim of some stupid politician who didn't realise that withdrawing all support south of the equator would signal to Argentina that we couldn't care less.
I went into civil aviation and had an enjoyable time for 8 years before moving on. However nothing would have stopped me if i could have flown - Herc, Helicopter, Phantom/Tornado or even a Queen's Flight budgie.
If you can't tell the difference between fast jet and a PHD, then go and do the PHD, which is just putting off joining the real world for another few years. By using flying time in the UAS you have selfishly blocked someone else who cared.
I went to University planning to go into the RAF in a ground role (Supply and Movements) but after three years at Uni, I went on IOT at Cranwell and Voluntarily Withdrew after 4 weeks.
There was no need to join an organisation where I had to do as I was told, without question, even if that meant getting killed to satisfy the whim of some stupid politician who didn't realise that withdrawing all support south of the equator would signal to Argentina that we couldn't care less.
I went into civil aviation and had an enjoyable time for 8 years before moving on. However nothing would have stopped me if i could have flown - Herc, Helicopter, Phantom/Tornado or even a Queen's Flight budgie.
If you can't tell the difference between fast jet and a PHD, then go and do the PHD, which is just putting off joining the real world for another few years. By using flying time in the UAS you have selfishly blocked someone else who cared.
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Dr,
Depends on the timeframe you're looking at; the redundancies post SDSR 2010 significantly skewed this figure for our generation.
In general, though, without this events considered, it has to be over 90% post IOT in my experience.
BB.
Depends on the timeframe you're looking at; the redundancies post SDSR 2010 significantly skewed this figure for our generation.
In general, though, without this events considered, it has to be over 90% post IOT in my experience.
BB.
Next time you are on an Underground train in London look around you.
Would you stick your life on the line for that lot?
The 'Mad Major' did that before he had an interview in London. So did I when I went for my interview with the Air Sec's at my 38 point.
Same result: Bye Bye.
Would you stick your life on the line for that lot?
The 'Mad Major' did that before he had an interview in London. So did I when I went for my interview with the Air Sec's at my 38 point.
Same result: Bye Bye.
I used to refer to the MoD Main Building as the 'Specialist Aircrew Recruiting Centre'. You just had to truss yourself up in suit and tie, spend time on the stifling underground before witnessing the shabbiness of the place and seeing all those poor $ods pandering to the 17:00-on-a-Friday whim of some VSO to realise that the minor embuggerances of a flying station were infinitely preferable!
So in 30 years, apart from 6 weeks of PVR porridge, I didn't have a single ground tour....
Unlike people-tube civvy flying, military flying is rarely boring or routine. I once flew over HQ STC at low level in one of HM's Bulldogs and saw the procession of people in raincoats trudging back up the hill from lunch in the Officers' Mess - the 'gabardine swine' staff officers, poor $ods. "You'll end up like one of those if you're stupid enough to be a career thruster", I told my student.
If you've been given the opportunity of a pilot slot at IOT, you really should grasp the challenge - you'll never get another bite at that cherry!
So in 30 years, apart from 6 weeks of PVR porridge, I didn't have a single ground tour....
Unlike people-tube civvy flying, military flying is rarely boring or routine. I once flew over HQ STC at low level in one of HM's Bulldogs and saw the procession of people in raincoats trudging back up the hill from lunch in the Officers' Mess - the 'gabardine swine' staff officers, poor $ods. "You'll end up like one of those if you're stupid enough to be a career thruster", I told my student.
If you've been given the opportunity of a pilot slot at IOT, you really should grasp the challenge - you'll never get another bite at that cherry!
Last edited by BEagle; 23rd Oct 2017 at 12:30.
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After spending a lot of years in the ATC, completing a FS and joining the UAS, by the end of Uni I found I was deemed to be medically unfit for military flying. I have since spent twenty years flying airliners and practicing various forms of hooliganism in small aircraft on my days off.
While I'm pleased with the direction my life has gone, part of me regrets not having the opportunity to be able to fly a grey pointy reheated thing, even though statistically I'd probably have been streamed elsewhere anyway.
In short, if you believe you will look back and regret not having tried, get on and do it, given the opportunity is there for you. If you don't, there'll be someone out there who will who won't thank you for wasting their slot.
While I'm pleased with the direction my life has gone, part of me regrets not having the opportunity to be able to fly a grey pointy reheated thing, even though statistically I'd probably have been streamed elsewhere anyway.
In short, if you believe you will look back and regret not having tried, get on and do it, given the opportunity is there for you. If you don't, there'll be someone out there who will who won't thank you for wasting their slot.
Where's 'e gone guv?...
...is he sitting somewhere whimpering under the deluge of contradictory info/opinions?
You have to give it your best shot matey. Stop mithering and go for it.
On day one at S Cerney a long time ago, as we got off the train the blessed Sgt Sparkes shouted from the bus "Get a move on gentlemen I'm getting bloody wet here".
The chap standing beside me made a sort of whimpering noise, picked up his bag and got back on the train.
Many moons later I often wondered what he said to his parents when he got home....
Don't be 2017's version of that guy.
The Ancient Mariner
You have to give it your best shot matey. Stop mithering and go for it.
On day one at S Cerney a long time ago, as we got off the train the blessed Sgt Sparkes shouted from the bus "Get a move on gentlemen I'm getting bloody wet here".
The chap standing beside me made a sort of whimpering noise, picked up his bag and got back on the train.
Many moons later I often wondered what he said to his parents when he got home....
Don't be 2017's version of that guy.
The Ancient Mariner
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Rossian,
You had a worse one than my course. Our first quitter was late morning on the first full day. One night in the block, followed by an early start, was enough for him. I wasn't quite eighteen,and had led a fairly sheltered life in Oz, so was well and truly out of my comfort zone. However, you don't get to be an RAF pilot any other way than doing it. BTW, Sgt Sparkes wasn't so bad.
You had a worse one than my course. Our first quitter was late morning on the first full day. One night in the block, followed by an early start, was enough for him. I wasn't quite eighteen,and had led a fairly sheltered life in Oz, so was well and truly out of my comfort zone. However, you don't get to be an RAF pilot any other way than doing it. BTW, Sgt Sparkes wasn't so bad.
Herod.....
......Ned Sparkes was a bloody outstanding chap. I last met him at St Mawgan where he was the SWO. I was w/e duty officer and called to ask for the DO's bag of knowledge to be left out for me as I'd just landed. I thought I recognised the voice so I rang back about a minute after and asked if he had been the 3 Squadron drill sgt "Yes, I was" he replied "and I recognised yoiur voice too Mr Rossian". It took me about 2 weeks to understand what he was saying(being a young lad from the Highlands) when giving drill commands.
The Ancient Mariner
The Ancient Mariner
One night in the South Brick Lines and one of Slasher's Cranwell cadet haircuts was enough for the chap with whom I shared the train ride from King's Cross to Grantham in Sep 1968....
Crowing hadn't even started either!
Crowing hadn't even started either!
Halfway through my ITS course at South Cerney National Service was stopped. There was about a week before it was established that any cadets who suspended themselves would NOT be liable for conscription.
After that there was only the UAS plus about four of us Direct Entry left, the other eight had disappeared.
Our passing out parade on the course I was recoursed to must have been the smallest in history; about ten of us. I don't think we bothered with a photograph.
After that there was only the UAS plus about four of us Direct Entry left, the other eight had disappeared.
Our passing out parade on the course I was recoursed to must have been the smallest in history; about ten of us. I don't think we bothered with a photograph.
Think BEagle and Tay Cough have the essence of this thread.
You've earned a unique opportunity, but only you can decide whether you want to seize it.
IOT is obviously a triage situation, HMG wants to wash out the non committed, so you are right to pause before you step up. A burning desire to fly obviously helped many to overcome the vicissitudes of the program, but it is surely not essential.
In your case, the question is what are your other choices.
It seemed that you have good university prospects, but no massively better option.
If you had a link to a strong academic advisor, who could map out an alternative route for you, the choice would be harder. But as is, you're in a super select group, many of whom probably have similar concerns and doubts. That is a good set of associates to have. So recognize your good fortune and try your hardest to maximize it. Not many will have that option.
You've earned a unique opportunity, but only you can decide whether you want to seize it.
IOT is obviously a triage situation, HMG wants to wash out the non committed, so you are right to pause before you step up. A burning desire to fly obviously helped many to overcome the vicissitudes of the program, but it is surely not essential.
In your case, the question is what are your other choices.
It seemed that you have good university prospects, but no massively better option.
If you had a link to a strong academic advisor, who could map out an alternative route for you, the choice would be harder. But as is, you're in a super select group, many of whom probably have similar concerns and doubts. That is a good set of associates to have. So recognize your good fortune and try your hardest to maximize it. Not many will have that option.
"I have always had doubts about whether the RAF would be right for me" - if there is doubt, there is no doubt. Joining the military is a huge undertaking and in my opinion is more a lifestyle than a job or career.
"...be involved in this forced group bonding, even if you would want to cultivate friendships with just a few people. This is probably not the right attitude for the military, so I wouldn't get very far." I disagree in that it isn't 'forced group bonding' and that you could succeed in the RAF while disassociating yourself from all but 'just a few people' however, it is unlikely that you will fit in. The RAF is about camaraderie, making best friends with people you've only just met and being friends when you bump into them again years later. You are likely to be viewed as an outsider, and not because you don't want to get boozed in the bar.
"Second, the bases are depressing, isolated and you could end up working in unfavourable parts of the country." yip, they might even be in unfavourable parts of the world; I've spent over 2 years in **** deserts around the world living in portacabins and tents, half of that time in non-flying jobs. But it is the camaraderie that makes it doable and I've seen and done some interesting stuff.
"wouldn't you rather work in a pleasant town/city" yes, there are a number of places I would rather work in however, the military isn't a career where you get to choose. If you don't want the risk of being posted to deepest darkest Scotland to fly Typhoon/P8, again, the RAF is not for you. If you want to make some great friends and make the most of whatever crap mess/quarter you get posted to then come on board!
"I know people who are on 1+ year holds between IOT and EFT. It could take over 5 years to become operational." Holds are an unfortunate norm for RAF flying training. You might get lucky; I was relatively lucky and only held for 1 year in total. With re-streaming it took me 6 years to get operational. The way MFTS is going, my guess is there is a good chance you hold longer.
"Even then, you might only fly 15-20 hours a month." You might not fly at all some months. You might bounce from one currency to the next and only get good continuity when you go on operations. You might get posted out of area to a Flight Safety job and not flight at all for 6 months; worse, you might get posted to one in the UK and not fly for a couple of years! Some people get lucky and only fly, but the old adage that you are officer first, pilot second is probably pretty accurate; I have only 2000 hours after 15 years. In saying that I have really enjoyed the variety and challenge of the stuff I have done when not flying and as a result, don't at this stage have any designs on leaving.
"Could I also ask if any of the flying ever gets mundane" yes, I know guys flying on operations right now who find the flying boring. It's all relative though, as it is still more interesting than flying airliners. And even boring flying is more interesting than a lot of desk jobs!
In short, if want to you choose where you live and mainly just fly multi engine aircraft with people you don't know and don't have to socialise with, go to the airlines. If you want a career with variety and some great friends, join the RAF and give it 100%. But if there are doubts, there is no doubt.
"...be involved in this forced group bonding, even if you would want to cultivate friendships with just a few people. This is probably not the right attitude for the military, so I wouldn't get very far." I disagree in that it isn't 'forced group bonding' and that you could succeed in the RAF while disassociating yourself from all but 'just a few people' however, it is unlikely that you will fit in. The RAF is about camaraderie, making best friends with people you've only just met and being friends when you bump into them again years later. You are likely to be viewed as an outsider, and not because you don't want to get boozed in the bar.
"Second, the bases are depressing, isolated and you could end up working in unfavourable parts of the country." yip, they might even be in unfavourable parts of the world; I've spent over 2 years in **** deserts around the world living in portacabins and tents, half of that time in non-flying jobs. But it is the camaraderie that makes it doable and I've seen and done some interesting stuff.
"wouldn't you rather work in a pleasant town/city" yes, there are a number of places I would rather work in however, the military isn't a career where you get to choose. If you don't want the risk of being posted to deepest darkest Scotland to fly Typhoon/P8, again, the RAF is not for you. If you want to make some great friends and make the most of whatever crap mess/quarter you get posted to then come on board!
"I know people who are on 1+ year holds between IOT and EFT. It could take over 5 years to become operational." Holds are an unfortunate norm for RAF flying training. You might get lucky; I was relatively lucky and only held for 1 year in total. With re-streaming it took me 6 years to get operational. The way MFTS is going, my guess is there is a good chance you hold longer.
"Even then, you might only fly 15-20 hours a month." You might not fly at all some months. You might bounce from one currency to the next and only get good continuity when you go on operations. You might get posted out of area to a Flight Safety job and not flight at all for 6 months; worse, you might get posted to one in the UK and not fly for a couple of years! Some people get lucky and only fly, but the old adage that you are officer first, pilot second is probably pretty accurate; I have only 2000 hours after 15 years. In saying that I have really enjoyed the variety and challenge of the stuff I have done when not flying and as a result, don't at this stage have any designs on leaving.
"Could I also ask if any of the flying ever gets mundane" yes, I know guys flying on operations right now who find the flying boring. It's all relative though, as it is still more interesting than flying airliners. And even boring flying is more interesting than a lot of desk jobs!
In short, if want to you choose where you live and mainly just fly multi engine aircraft with people you don't know and don't have to socialise with, go to the airlines. If you want a career with variety and some great friends, join the RAF and give it 100%. But if there are doubts, there is no doubt.
With those attitudes i would like to hope the RAF screening process would reject you.
Four years in a UAS and you dont know ? come on, bonding with fellow officers on a squadron or in the mess - you dont like that idea? Its a team game and you are not a team player.
Four years in a UAS and you dont know ? come on, bonding with fellow officers on a squadron or in the mess - you dont like that idea? Its a team game and you are not a team player.
Warning..well past sell by date, but FWIW
1. I wouldn't say having doubts should automatically rule you "out".I defy anyone to say they never ever had a "WTF am I doing here" moment...but I suspect for most of us it was a brief one..
2. IMHO you can get away with being a slightly square peg in a round hole, it can make for some interesting conversations, you can still have an enjoyable time and make great lifelong friends, just accept that if your views are too off kilter you might not make the dizzy ranks of Marshall of the RAF..
3. Location, Location...well if the bright lights are what you are after then yes, you do have a problem ...Sleaford is probably untouched by modern hand, are Sundays still dry In Anglesey? .....As for the op stuff I left before the desert became fashionable, but I did spend over a month living on a car ferry.......and then we moved to a "facility" which in it's later life became part of a US prison....
4. AP is absolutely correct in stating..." if want to you choose where you live and mainly just fly multi engine aircraft with people you don't know and don't have to socialise with, go to the airlines."
Ultimately you've got one crack at IOT and beyond, you won't get another go - and if you walk away now you will never ever know "could I have done that...". Now if you can live with that...
1. I wouldn't say having doubts should automatically rule you "out".I defy anyone to say they never ever had a "WTF am I doing here" moment...but I suspect for most of us it was a brief one..
2. IMHO you can get away with being a slightly square peg in a round hole, it can make for some interesting conversations, you can still have an enjoyable time and make great lifelong friends, just accept that if your views are too off kilter you might not make the dizzy ranks of Marshall of the RAF..
3. Location, Location...well if the bright lights are what you are after then yes, you do have a problem ...Sleaford is probably untouched by modern hand, are Sundays still dry In Anglesey? .....As for the op stuff I left before the desert became fashionable, but I did spend over a month living on a car ferry.......and then we moved to a "facility" which in it's later life became part of a US prison....
4. AP is absolutely correct in stating..." if want to you choose where you live and mainly just fly multi engine aircraft with people you don't know and don't have to socialise with, go to the airlines."
Ultimately you've got one crack at IOT and beyond, you won't get another go - and if you walk away now you will never ever know "could I have done that...". Now if you can live with that...
Last edited by wiggy; 25th Oct 2017 at 08:40. Reason: you're > your
