Quitting before IOT
I think the OP deserves credit for raising the question but, as has been said, merely raising it actually also provides the answer.
As someone who didn't make it through OASC many moons ago (but did get a Commission in another service later and learnt to fly privately later) but has subsequently had an enjoyable and successful career I can say this:
Being a FJ pilot in the RAF was the only thing I ever wanted to do, and it still is!
If you don't feel like that about it, walk away now.
As someone who didn't make it through OASC many moons ago (but did get a Commission in another service later and learnt to fly privately later) but has subsequently had an enjoyable and successful career I can say this:
Being a FJ pilot in the RAF was the only thing I ever wanted to do, and it still is!
If you don't feel like that about it, walk away now.
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Aevu,
As I'm sure you know - if you get 10 replies on PPrune you'll end up with 15 opinions to manage!
While you observations may seem to some to be negative, I suspect they're only based on what you've seen and experienced rather than you interpretation of them. It'd be hard to disagree with them.
The days of people wanting to join the RAF because they love flying so much that's all they've ever wanted to do and they want to do it so much they'll live in horrid housing in an isolated part of the country are over. Sorry retired folks - those days are over.
Today people join because they want an exciting and enjoyable stepping stone for the second chapter of their career. For pilots, this more often than not all is about getting the hours to move into the airline world in their late 30s. For the ground trades, this is often about working in a world that pays you while you're in the gym, trains you to do a difficult job that gets you good qualifications, and then lets you do that job in difficult conditions.
As a 22 year old with a good degree, the graduate schemes of the UK's larger employers offer worlds which couldn't be any more different to the RAF. Big salaries, great names to put on your CV and experience of working with modern digital technologies etc. etc. That said, people in your situation do still join the RAF, even as pilots! But I'm not sure any of the reasons why they do it today have been mentioned on this page so far.
As I'm sure you know - if you get 10 replies on PPrune you'll end up with 15 opinions to manage!
While you observations may seem to some to be negative, I suspect they're only based on what you've seen and experienced rather than you interpretation of them. It'd be hard to disagree with them.
The days of people wanting to join the RAF because they love flying so much that's all they've ever wanted to do and they want to do it so much they'll live in horrid housing in an isolated part of the country are over. Sorry retired folks - those days are over.
Today people join because they want an exciting and enjoyable stepping stone for the second chapter of their career. For pilots, this more often than not all is about getting the hours to move into the airline world in their late 30s. For the ground trades, this is often about working in a world that pays you while you're in the gym, trains you to do a difficult job that gets you good qualifications, and then lets you do that job in difficult conditions.
As a 22 year old with a good degree, the graduate schemes of the UK's larger employers offer worlds which couldn't be any more different to the RAF. Big salaries, great names to put on your CV and experience of working with modern digital technologies etc. etc. That said, people in your situation do still join the RAF, even as pilots! But I'm not sure any of the reasons why they do it today have been mentioned on this page so far.
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I agree with the views above.
I grew up on Royal Air Force stations. My dad only ever - save for a couple of years flew for a living spanning a period of more than 40 years. My father's desk would be covered in beautiful maps with carefully drawn lines on them. His book case full of books on flying. That is not to say he no other interests. He was a very good pianist and liked fast cars and travel. But his raison d'être was flying.
In common with Herod, my dad had also dreamt of flying from being knee high. He even made a mock- up joystick as a young boy..
I knew however from a young age that it was not for me. I chose an entirely different profession where I could use my cerebral skill set and communication skills as an advocate.
Flying particularly in military service, like other professions including my own, requires total commitment of body and soul. Like a successful long distance runner it is not a question of having to go that extra mile in training, it is a case of wanting to go that extra mile to be the best.
I grew up on Royal Air Force stations. My dad only ever - save for a couple of years flew for a living spanning a period of more than 40 years. My father's desk would be covered in beautiful maps with carefully drawn lines on them. His book case full of books on flying. That is not to say he no other interests. He was a very good pianist and liked fast cars and travel. But his raison d'être was flying.
In common with Herod, my dad had also dreamt of flying from being knee high. He even made a mock- up joystick as a young boy..
I knew however from a young age that it was not for me. I chose an entirely different profession where I could use my cerebral skill set and communication skills as an advocate.
Flying particularly in military service, like other professions including my own, requires total commitment of body and soul. Like a successful long distance runner it is not a question of having to go that extra mile in training, it is a case of wanting to go that extra mile to be the best.
Really. That may be true of yourself and possibly a few of your mates but it is most certainly NOT true of the majority. I have taught hundreds of trainee RAF pilots and that is not the majority view in my experience.
I'm not retired, just 35 years of experience and in current full-time flying practice. Please don't generalise.
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I think I was about 12 when my father had the inevitable chat about "what are you going to do?". I wanted to be an officer in the Armed Forces, which one as yet undefined. I made one thing very clear ... I didn't want to follow him into the daily trudge of commerce, with a world bounded by office walls*.
The CCF, and later ATC, polarised my Light Blue thinking, and my PPL (Flying Scholarship) refined it further. Sadly my eyesight wasn't up to scratch, but wait ... the Royal Navy took Helicopter Pilots with my acceptable/correctable deficiency. And so, after successful Selection processes, it was off to BRNC Dartmouth.
And here is the point of my dribblings ... I wasn't in the least bit interested in the RN, just the opportunity to fly professionally in the Military. I have no idea how my apathy for things nautical, or the interestingly archaic customs and nomenclature, would have worked out, as to everyone's benefit I failed flying grading.
Shortly after I joined the RAF as an ATCO, thus fulfilling my original broadly-scoped ambition, and had a reasonably successful career which I actually enjoyed.
I went into the RN for completely wrong reasons, with no interest in the Navy per se. I have little doubt, even if I had been successful, I would have hated it. Without 100% motivation for whichever Service, I submit anyone is on a hiding to nothing in the medium term (and the long term is unlikely to apply).
* That came later, during numerous tours at MoD, NATS and Group HQs
The CCF, and later ATC, polarised my Light Blue thinking, and my PPL (Flying Scholarship) refined it further. Sadly my eyesight wasn't up to scratch, but wait ... the Royal Navy took Helicopter Pilots with my acceptable/correctable deficiency. And so, after successful Selection processes, it was off to BRNC Dartmouth.
And here is the point of my dribblings ... I wasn't in the least bit interested in the RN, just the opportunity to fly professionally in the Military. I have no idea how my apathy for things nautical, or the interestingly archaic customs and nomenclature, would have worked out, as to everyone's benefit I failed flying grading.
Shortly after I joined the RAF as an ATCO, thus fulfilling my original broadly-scoped ambition, and had a reasonably successful career which I actually enjoyed.
I went into the RN for completely wrong reasons, with no interest in the Navy per se. I have little doubt, even if I had been successful, I would have hated it. Without 100% motivation for whichever Service, I submit anyone is on a hiding to nothing in the medium term (and the long term is unlikely to apply).
* That came later, during numerous tours at MoD, NATS and Group HQs
I can understand the 'Don't waste an IOT pilot slot' and the 'You're not committed enough' viewpoints. But really, you have little to lose. You won't get through IOT, pilot training and make it to a front line squadron unless you are 100% committed but you might find, when surrounded and encouraged by others in the same position, that you do have that desire.
Worst that can happen is that you bang out at some stage. There would be no shame in that and you can head off and do your PhD then. A year or so lost in your 20s is nothing.
I went through OASC in the early 90s and failed pilot selection on eyesight but was offered nav. I decided I didn't want to sit behind/next to someone doing the job I really wanted, but there have been times over the years when I wonder whether should I have given it more consideration.
Be selfish and think about what you could be turning down.
Worst that can happen is that you bang out at some stage. There would be no shame in that and you can head off and do your PhD then. A year or so lost in your 20s is nothing.
I went through OASC in the early 90s and failed pilot selection on eyesight but was offered nav. I decided I didn't want to sit behind/next to someone doing the job I really wanted, but there have been times over the years when I wonder whether should I have given it more consideration.
Be selfish and think about what you could be turning down.
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A year or so lost in your 20s is nothing
How my abilities/deficiences would have influenced my career is a different question, but I know for sure I wasted 2 significant years (63 and 64) by not being in the rat-race already!
MPN11 - sure, in military terms, but that is not the issue. Sounds like the OP will head off into academia if not the air force, and I doubt a year finding out that you weren't cut out for the military and/or flying would make much difference.
A brave question on a forum like this. I disagree with some of your statements, there's no real force bonding anymore and most people live off base and lead a very normal 'faux civilian' life. However, it's not a job its a vocation; if you're not 100% committed you'll almost certainly fail training. Even if you get to the frontline, you will be working with people who will walk through walls to get the job done, if that's not you then save yourself the time, and effort and do something that better suits you.
Not sure about the thread title - he is not considering "quitting". IMHO he is considering his life choices. As a flt cdr at the Towers in the 80s I had an issue with cadets being described as "failing" The RAF selected them and trained them, but "they" failed. Not in my book, and furthermore if they "failed to reach the standard required for commissioning, they needed to go on to other things without carrying a "failure" label. In a few instances I had cadets in my charge who clearly should not have been there. In one case it was because his father was RAF and "told" his son to follow in his footsteps. In another case the stude had been brought up by a single Mum, and had been taught never to put his head above the parapet. He finally asked to VW (resign) the Friday before Black Monday (results) but I sent him away for the weekend and think about what he wanted to do. He transferred to NCO aircrew, was successful and later commissioned. Youngest W mentioned earlier in the thread, qualified as a Yachtmaster Offshore, commercially endorsed, at 20, decided to go to uni and earned a BSc in yacht building and survey, got hooked into computer aided design. Worked on contract to National Grid, and had to go and talk to farmers about wayleaves and address public meetings. That really hit the spot, and he is now with an infrastructure surveyors and about to start a the ARICS course. Let life take you where it will. At least I have a very happy and contented 29 year old son.
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I joined the RAF late-ish (30) after another career. I spent a year looking into what the Service could offer me, and matching that with what I could offer it, before applying. I loathed, hated and detested IOT but gritted my teeth and got on with it because I knew that the 'real' RAF wasn't like that. I had 21 years of the most exhilarating and satisfying careers I could have wished for. It wasn't all beer and skittles - there were tough times too - but I had the satisfaction of serving my country (old-fashioned concept, I know), and of the RAF making the most of my skills and abilities.
The best thing was the people I served with, all the way through, Service and civilians. And I was proud to hold HM's commission.
The best thing was the people I served with, all the way through, Service and civilians. And I was proud to hold HM's commission.
When I signed up, I wasn't 100% that the RAF was the career for me. However it was an easy decision to join because (broadly speaking) you only get one opportunity. As an earlier poster said, if it doesn't pan out, you can always leave. What you cannot do, as a bored middle-aged executive in a City firm with a nice house and a tedious rail commute, sat at your desk wondering 'what if?', is wind the clock back 30 years and become a RAF pilot instead.
In my view, you can't possibly make a decision on any of the following factors at your stage as there are simply too many variables:
- Location
- Nature of flying / aircraft type
- Flying hours
There are some things that are more certain:
- Camaraderie
- Satisfaction of serving and (potentially) playing a bit-part in history
- Income security
- Pension (despite recent changes, still better than private sector offerings)
- Variety (a "new job" every few years if you want it, without risk)
There are many downsides to the job, but there is still something rather special about being a military pilot.
I note that BA has just opened a self-funded pilot apprenticeship scheme. If multi-engine is your aim and you're not particularly bothered about serving Queen and country, I would go to them instead.
In my view, you can't possibly make a decision on any of the following factors at your stage as there are simply too many variables:
- Location
- Nature of flying / aircraft type
- Flying hours
There are some things that are more certain:
- Camaraderie
- Satisfaction of serving and (potentially) playing a bit-part in history
- Income security
- Pension (despite recent changes, still better than private sector offerings)
- Variety (a "new job" every few years if you want it, without risk)
There are many downsides to the job, but there is still something rather special about being a military pilot.
I note that BA has just opened a self-funded pilot apprenticeship scheme. If multi-engine is your aim and you're not particularly bothered about serving Queen and country, I would go to them instead.
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aevu
You need to get in touch with the President of the Aptitude Board at OASC; he's the one who most probably signed-off your selection/board report. Ask for a chat over the phone, be honest and tell him that you're having a bit of a wobble over whether the RAF is right for you, right now. If you were a strong candidate at selection, OASC will likely have some flexibility to delay your place at IOT so you can get your doubts out of your system.
Top-tip: please don't leave it until the last minute (i.e., last couple of months) then withdraw - these IOT places are very valuable both in demand and cost!
Good luck with your decision.
You need to get in touch with the President of the Aptitude Board at OASC; he's the one who most probably signed-off your selection/board report. Ask for a chat over the phone, be honest and tell him that you're having a bit of a wobble over whether the RAF is right for you, right now. If you were a strong candidate at selection, OASC will likely have some flexibility to delay your place at IOT so you can get your doubts out of your system.
Top-tip: please don't leave it until the last minute (i.e., last couple of months) then withdraw - these IOT places are very valuable both in demand and cost!
Good luck with your decision.
The thing that will see you through all the things you think you might not like is the comradeship / teamwork / BELONGING that comes from being a member of a close knit team / crew / formation / squadron. ( and It does not have to involve the bar) If THAT does not appeal to you then don't do it.
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Intersting thread, all I can add is that it’s horses for courses, you have a marvellous oportunity ahead of you and you should be proud at this point to have been selected for IOT, it’s no mean feat and the selectors must have seen something in you to pass you through selection. If you approach IOT with an open mind you may find you like it, if not you have only lost a short period of your young life and will at least come away with an experience that could serve you well in whatever other career you may choose. I wish you well in whatever you decide.
Pontius Navigator
As you are/were a Directional Consultant I had to chuckle at the above statement from post # 4, I am sure that the residents of RAF Brize Norton will be enamoured to know that the borders have all changed
Pontius Navigator
Finally, unfavourable parts of the country; not many bases left so define unfavourable? Multies Wiltshire or Lincolnshire, maybe Scotland but less likely. FJ, Norfolk, Lincolnshire, Scotland.
I think the op is wise to question his decision, it shows a level of maturity that might be of some use.
I would challenge his view of isolated bases, the favourite example of Marham is 2 1/2 hours away from London and you have easy access to some of the best beaches in the country with all the activities you associate with being near the coast (except surfing perhaps). All the other bases have their pros and cons. In general the bases are not that bad, it's just all us old farts in here can't stop remembering the good old days, conveniently forgetting when we were young the old farts were complaining about how things have gone to the dogs, 'twas ever thus.
I would have thought a holding officer would have countless opportunities for AT, learning new skills and sports & developing their leadership qualities. How you perceive and approach these things will shape your experiences.
How can the flying not be worth it? Regardless of stream I believe that living and working on a Sqn brings a sense of belonging that is almost impossible to find elsewhere and when you go on ops, team spirit and sense of achievement is unparalleled.
To repeat two pieces of good advice, don't regret what you didn't do and whatever you do give it your all.
Whatever you choose good luck.
I would challenge his view of isolated bases, the favourite example of Marham is 2 1/2 hours away from London and you have easy access to some of the best beaches in the country with all the activities you associate with being near the coast (except surfing perhaps). All the other bases have their pros and cons. In general the bases are not that bad, it's just all us old farts in here can't stop remembering the good old days, conveniently forgetting when we were young the old farts were complaining about how things have gone to the dogs, 'twas ever thus.
I would have thought a holding officer would have countless opportunities for AT, learning new skills and sports & developing their leadership qualities. How you perceive and approach these things will shape your experiences.
How can the flying not be worth it? Regardless of stream I believe that living and working on a Sqn brings a sense of belonging that is almost impossible to find elsewhere and when you go on ops, team spirit and sense of achievement is unparalleled.
To repeat two pieces of good advice, don't regret what you didn't do and whatever you do give it your all.
Whatever you choose good luck.
OEVU - I have had a fairly varied career but I'm still fairly young for the average pruner (under 35!). I would say that I don't fit the 'standard UAS' image of the play hard culture. To be honest, a pretty large number of my colleagues don't, we just lead normal (boring?!) lives. Certainly don't take your UAS experience as an indicator of what life inside is like. I've spent a lot of time on/around UAS's (3 now) and all of them, whilst being full of good people, have definitely revolved around a good night in the bar.
There's a time and a place for that, and I don't have issue with those that do, but don't feel you have to enjoy that to 'fit in'.
Secondly, regarding whether it's what you want to do with your life, you're right to ask difficult questions. However, don't think that by doing it you're committing to being a monk-pilot for the rest of your life. I'm looking at a second career right now, not in aviation at all, and my previous stands me in excellent stead in many ways across the board.
Thirdly - regarding pleasant places to live 50 miles from London. Consider Oxford, Reading and Winchester. About 5-6000 RAF personnel work within easy commute of the above, including 1/2 the multi fleet and all of the rotary fleet (although you do have to become the unloved step child of the RAF if you go rotary).
Fourthly - regarding the average working week Vs flying etc. Everything comes in fits and starts. Every pilot will love to whine about the times they only got 15 hours in 3 months, but they'll totally fail to mention the time they got 100! Those times are the ones where the memories are made, on a shooting op or, like the guys recently deployed to the Carribbean trying to make a difference.
All the above is pretty pro-RAF. Bear in mind I'm actively looking to leave, and that should tell you I don't think it's all rosey. I've spent a not inconsiderable amount of time working my ass off, and I've had several years spent at least half away from home, which works at some stages of life but not at others. For me, I love flying (and I've spent this week flying my ass off, so I'm happy!) but it's time to go back to studying and try my hand at a different challenge I think.
All I'd say to you is, at the age of 35-40 you can change your mind and go get a PhD or do whatever floats your boat that way. However, you can't get your hands on a Typhoon, Chinook or A400 at the second bite of the cherry, so if you choose something else, it's permanent.
Wish you all the best either way, continue to be thoughtful, but don't beat yourself up whichever way you choose, just own your decision.
There's a time and a place for that, and I don't have issue with those that do, but don't feel you have to enjoy that to 'fit in'.
Secondly, regarding whether it's what you want to do with your life, you're right to ask difficult questions. However, don't think that by doing it you're committing to being a monk-pilot for the rest of your life. I'm looking at a second career right now, not in aviation at all, and my previous stands me in excellent stead in many ways across the board.
Thirdly - regarding pleasant places to live 50 miles from London. Consider Oxford, Reading and Winchester. About 5-6000 RAF personnel work within easy commute of the above, including 1/2 the multi fleet and all of the rotary fleet (although you do have to become the unloved step child of the RAF if you go rotary).
Fourthly - regarding the average working week Vs flying etc. Everything comes in fits and starts. Every pilot will love to whine about the times they only got 15 hours in 3 months, but they'll totally fail to mention the time they got 100! Those times are the ones where the memories are made, on a shooting op or, like the guys recently deployed to the Carribbean trying to make a difference.
All the above is pretty pro-RAF. Bear in mind I'm actively looking to leave, and that should tell you I don't think it's all rosey. I've spent a not inconsiderable amount of time working my ass off, and I've had several years spent at least half away from home, which works at some stages of life but not at others. For me, I love flying (and I've spent this week flying my ass off, so I'm happy!) but it's time to go back to studying and try my hand at a different challenge I think.
All I'd say to you is, at the age of 35-40 you can change your mind and go get a PhD or do whatever floats your boat that way. However, you can't get your hands on a Typhoon, Chinook or A400 at the second bite of the cherry, so if you choose something else, it's permanent.
Wish you all the best either way, continue to be thoughtful, but don't beat yourself up whichever way you choose, just own your decision.
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Hi OP.
Just seen your post and been beaten into replying by a host of individuals far more qualified than I!
What a lucky SOB you are to have the choice,but having said that it’s obviously not an easy one for you.I was once in your shoes but had the choice made for me in the lead up to GW1 when the RAF just stopped recruiting for a while....I then became too old!
Nearly 30 years down the road I occasionally think ‘what if.’However,I’ve had a fantastic civil flying career and funnily enough,worked with plenty of ex RAF guys of a very similar age to myself,nearly to a man they are convinced I didn’t miss much at the end of the game.What did strike me was the sheer amount of luck nearly all of them said they had in succeeding FJ training,almost saying that was the only reason they got through!
You have obviously got a great opportunity waiting for you to accept it,however unless you really think that you are up to the challenge,and not just fitting in at the bar,I think that you are correct to think about your motives.Its not just about flying.Its the same deliberation every member of the armed forces face at some stage....do you want to fight for your beliefs and are you willing to pay the price?
Good luck with your choice.
Just seen your post and been beaten into replying by a host of individuals far more qualified than I!
What a lucky SOB you are to have the choice,but having said that it’s obviously not an easy one for you.I was once in your shoes but had the choice made for me in the lead up to GW1 when the RAF just stopped recruiting for a while....I then became too old!
Nearly 30 years down the road I occasionally think ‘what if.’However,I’ve had a fantastic civil flying career and funnily enough,worked with plenty of ex RAF guys of a very similar age to myself,nearly to a man they are convinced I didn’t miss much at the end of the game.What did strike me was the sheer amount of luck nearly all of them said they had in succeeding FJ training,almost saying that was the only reason they got through!
You have obviously got a great opportunity waiting for you to accept it,however unless you really think that you are up to the challenge,and not just fitting in at the bar,I think that you are correct to think about your motives.Its not just about flying.Its the same deliberation every member of the armed forces face at some stage....do you want to fight for your beliefs and are you willing to pay the price?
Good luck with your choice.
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It is if you want to go airline flying. Given the cyclical nature of the industry, a young person can miss sponsorship opportunities or a period of high demand and end up stuck in the doldrums for several years.
