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Quitting before IOT

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Old 20th Oct 2017, 00:24
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Question Quitting before IOT

Good evening everyone,

I realise there is a similar post on this issue, however there doesn't seem to have been anything on this for several years so I am interested to see how circumstances might have changed.

In a few months I am due to start IOT as a pilot. I was in a UAS and have a very good degree. However I have always had doubts about whether the RAF would be right for me, and these have come to the forefront now that training is imminent. I would therefore appreciate an opinion on these issues from those of you who are/have recently been in the RAF as a pilot. I am not asking you to make up my mind for me, rather I would like to check if the assumptions I'm basing my judgements on are correct.

First, I am concerned that I simply wouldn't fit in with my colleagues. The assumption this is based on is that every evening on an isolated base the only activity is drinking in the bar. From my experience, it is frowned upon to want to do one's own thing or not to be involved in this forced group bonding, even if you would want to cultivate friendships with just a few people. This is probably not the right attitude for the military, so I wouldn't get very far. Is this reasonable thinking?

Second, the bases are depressing, isolated and you could end up working in unfavourable parts of the country. This is exacerbated by lack of funding which means facilities are closing or are in a poor state of repair. Fair enough, we are meant to be military and put up with it because we fight on and do what we're told. However, faced with a lifestyle which appears to be a downgrade from university, a graduate in a competitive market is perfectly entitled to reject the military and live/work elsewhere. I therefore don't see how I could put up with this aspect of the lifestyle, unless the flying substantially made up for it. As I only have limited exposure: are the bases really that bad and wouldn't you rather work in a pleasant town/city?

The deciding factor is whether the flying makes it all worth it. But this is also in doubt. I know people who are on 1+ year holds between IOT and EFT. It could take over 5 years to become operational. Even then, you might only fly 15-20 hours a month. The rest of the time I assume you are drowned by the elastic burden of "admin" which fills any free time in the RAF? Could I also ask if any of the flying ever gets mundane - especially for multis as that is the stream I would prefer?

Thank you for reading this post and I apologise for the negative tone. I just want to make sure I'm not being to critical with my perceived disadvantages of joining. I have read a lot of complaints about the RAF going downhill in other posts on this forum, whereas positive posts seem place tenuous emphasis on abstract ideals. I just need to make an informed decision.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 07:49
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Are you sure you were on a UAS?

Did you not attend any Summer/Easter camps, if so, didn't you speak to the livers-in?

A very strange post...
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 07:58
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Originally Posted by Stuff
Are you sure you were on a UAS?

Did you not attend any Summer/Easter camps, if so, didn't you speak to the livers-in?

A very strange post...
Depends on the UAS in question. If OP was MASUAS or LUAS then they were Woodvale based - what livers-in are there to talk to?

But still, they should have had 2+ years to research and get used to the idea before starting the application. Getting through the hoops is no mean thing...


OP, don't judge a career on IOT. Yes, mess life takes precedent at first, but it doesn't last forever. These days the gym is probably as much of a pull as the bar is... And it's the one place where you're guaranteed decent equipment.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 08:08
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Your view is quite frightening and with that view you are right to have doubts. Your first big shock, and as a graduate all the more so, will be IOT. Few wash out here but I am not sure you would make it. I have a nephew at Dartmouth ex-Newcastle, he does everything with a big grin on his face.

Now, drinking culture. True it happens but not as in days of yore. On operations or even routine flying the work pace limits your drinking. Heavy drinking and high tech don't mix.

I can't comment on holds, but they do present opportunities.

Now your 15-20 hours per month suggests fast jets. You may get something else. But even 15 hours a month can be 10-15 trips and one hour of flying takes many more hours preparation and debriefing. Admin happens but don't forget QRA standby, simulator sessions, operational study etc, even gym work (shock horror).

Then there are many other diversions available that demand your active choice - scuba expeditions (daughter and son in law done that), sailing, climbing, war walks, university short courses. The only limit is operational tempo and your initiative.

Disadvantages are history, positives are the future.

Multies mundane. Possibly but don't imagine a high flying civilian job won't become mundane.

Finally, unfavourable parts of the country; not many bases left so define unfavourable? Multies Wiltshire or Lincolnshire, maybe Scotland but less likely. FJ, Norfolk, Lincolnshire, Scotland.

Really it is up to you. If you think uniformity and discipline are not your things then you are right to have doubts.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 08:37
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The word not used so far is "Comradeship", an intangible concept but certainly stronger in the RAF than in civvy street.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 08:44
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Youngest W from an early age had his heart set on Sandhurst. Offered a scholarship to Welbeck but refused as he wanted to be a Gunner (must have been a terrible parent)Even binned A Levels in favour of Public Serviced Uniformed National Diploma. However, as part of that he had to be in the ACF. Loved that too, but realised that there were aspects he could not deliver on, so changed the plan, and with help of Army Careers came up with an alternative career path, and won a scholarship to UK Sailing Academy. Point is, people come to decide what is right for them by different paths. Hope OP finds the right one for him/her
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 09:03
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I would say everyone has some doubts, no doubt you had some initially when leaving for Uni but ended up loving it, I probably had doubts too about the RAF and initial training but they were soon dispelled and I ended up loving my career.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 09:12
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Although at first glance this appears to be a strange post, I think it shows a degree of foresight and courage to ask those questions in the "lions Den" of PPRUNE. With the wealth of experience on here then it is fair to say that some of our experiences can help someone on that first rung.

OP: As you have an IOT date then you will have been through many interviews, tests and visits. How did you feel when you left these? Were you elated to find out you had passed?

You have a degree but what in what subject? Was the degree a fall-back just in case you didn't get in as pilot or was it a degree to tick a box? You mention it taking years to reach front-line, well it takes 7 years to train as a dentist or vet and at the end you are either staring down gaping mouths or up sheep's backsides! What are your career prospects if you do change tack now?

Life on the UAS: Unsure as to which UAS but from what I saw they all had a good time and bonded well. You will make lifetime friends and they will support you through the hard times in the same way you will support them.

Isolated bases: Going back a few years but it was always the isolated bases that had the best out-of-work life. Most people hung around at weekends and the social life was excellent. I see you are in the South West but I am not sure where. Are there family / partner ties that are making you question life in the grim North East?

IOT: I didn't do IOT but went through the far tougher course at Dartmouth ( :-) ). There were times when I and my course mates questioned why the hell we were doing it but just knuckled down and got on with it; in reality it is only a small part of the whole picture and is designed to make you question what you are doing but there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it all sort of clicks into place once you break free.

I wasn't a pilot but had 16 very happy years in the RN and RAF. My son is a pilot; 22 years old and hooning around in a fast-jet (the envy of all his non-military mates and his extremely proud dad). He has had hold-over postings and enjoyed every minute of them, making very good friends along the way. Some of whom are very senior officers who were more than happy to give him sound advice and guidance along the way.

For you time is short I guess before IOT. Reading between the lines of your post I think you have already made up your mind not to go and are looking for support to justify your decision. A shame really as you have already achieved a lot that others can only dream of and, from personal experience, you may regret not giving it a go.

Good luck whichever way you go.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 09:29
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Dartmouth was the making of my son. Dropped out of uni, no ambition, but to everyones surprise joined the RN as midshipmen. In 6 months it turned him into a fully rounded grown up officer. Now navigating a submarine. But you have to love the challenge.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 10:07
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aevu, your post was well written with a level of erudition rarely noted on PPRuNe these days.

Many of your concerns are entirely justified; decaying infrastructure as a result of the lack of adequate funding being just one. Location of ME bases isn't too bad - also the RAF now has an AT/AAR fleet consisting almost entirely of modern types. Mostly located at Brize Norton - which for the benefit of certain aged navigators is in Oxfordshire, not Wiltshire. Not a bad part of the world bordering the Cotswolds, but expensive. Waddington is pretty good too. Flying from either beats the heck out of commuting to some dismal office in a city, no matter how you dress that up. Every time I have to attend meetings in London I wonder how anyone can tolerate the misery of rail commuting.

You won't be obliged to spend the whole evening in a mess bar; however, unwinding from an IOT day with the rest of your course wouldn't be unusual. You will be part of a team for sure, but that doesn't mean that you cannot pursue individual interests as well.

Anyway, you've done well to get as far as you have. But at the end of the day the decision is yours and yours alone.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 10:17
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Tend to agree with Beags and SWB above regarding your post. Difficult for you to get an answer for you when we're all so different. There are many jaundiced views of both the RAF and military service in general on here, but for me, I've had 35 years service so far, the vast majority of them flying fast jets & now teaching and I don't regret my choice of careers one iota. I've see and done things most others can only dream of doing and work/worked with and met some outstanding individuals.


My view would be; how can you possibly NOT want to be a military pilot? But that's just my view.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 10:26
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I always like the advice line, "Don't look back and regret what you did, regret what you didn't do". IOT- what have you got to lose? Many of the anxieties you've expressed may either be allayed or cemented in that year and, in my view, whatever you'd decide to do at the end of it, you'd be the better man for it.

Don't be the, "I could have been a fighter pilot, but I couldn't be arsed" bloke in the bar!

CG
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 10:58
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I am going to say what many people are probably thinking here.

If you are considering that the chance to go to work every single day and fly a Typhoon from low level, right up to flight level nosebleed supersonic, night and day all over the world as potentially not for you then I would like some of whatever you are smoking. The opportunity to fly the F35 off of a deck or the chance to live in any number of countries around the world as part of exchanges tours is incredible.

Yes there will be hard times, yes you will deal with non-flying related crap. But who said it was easy? The payback will be flying on Operations, being part of huge international exercises and going away on incredible adventurous training.

A lot of people will say my view is somewhat out of touch with the modern Armed Forces but the fact remains that the journey is what you make it and I would argue that a performance takeoff in a Typhoon probably makes up for the trivial jobs that need doing.


Despite all of this your post stinks of somebody that doesn't really want it enough, probably doesn't have the minerals and quite frankly doesn't fancy the challenge. I am sure a number of people reading this will also consider you somewhat selfish for wasting a pilot slot on IOT if you really do pull the plug.

Enjoy slaving away behind a desk for 40 years wondering what you could have achieved. At least you can tell your co-workers that you didn't have to endure a posting to North Scotland, before sitting on a 1hr tube commute home only to rinse and repeat until retirement.

Read your post out loud and listen to yourself.


Get a grip.

Cheers,


Mr. Vice
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 11:00
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Wow, thank you all for the numerous and quick replies. They have provided a lot to think about and I will now go through and address some of the open questions.

But still, they should have had 2+ years to research and get used to the idea before starting the application. Getting through the hoops is no mean thing...
True, I have done a lot of research and spoken to many people about this. But I during this time I was also at university and I was still in the process of getting through all the hoops. I graduated, and at some point along the way I had also jumped through all these hoops to be selected, and now with the future ahead of me and an offer in hand I am evaluating whether it's actually for me.

SWP, the questions you asked give an insightful answer. I did feel happy when I passed, but perhaps not to the extent that some people who had made it their one and only goal in life might have. Similarly, I went to university because I am interested in the subject (natural sciences), and because this could lead to a range of careers, one of which might be some form of flying. Joining the UAS then put the RAF option on the table. If I do change tack now, and I'm not trying to be arrogant, I think there is a lot I could do. What I would probably do instead is start a PhD (very different, I know).

Regarding isolated bases, my aversion, I think, stems from being cut off from the outside world, or the nice bits of it at least! I believe living in a pleasant area could have a real effect on happiness in life. For some reason, neither the bases I have been to nor their nearby cities live up to the standard of a nice little university city some 50 miles north of London. Yet this is, of course, a bigoted view and does not take into account beautiful Welsh valleys or Scottish highlands which surround some bases.

IOT, I can get through by playing the game when necessary and just getting on with it. But it will make me question why I am doing it all, especially when I'm not entirely convinced by the life afterwards.

Once again, thank you for all your input and I am still to make a final decision. Once I do, I will let you know.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 11:38
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aevu.

Don't do it. You are not nearly committed enough.

Flying was the only thing I wanted to do, since knee-high. Yes, on basic training , still not eighteen,I did get homesick. Lying awake at 3am, in a barrack-block, thinking "If I left now, tomorrow morning I would be home, Mum would cook me breakfast, and I wouldn't have to run round the perimeter-track in the fog". But I also wouldn't have been an RAF pilot. Twelve years military, twenty-seven commercial, and never doubted it. I always had a little prayer "Dear Lord, save me from the daily commute, and I'll never complain about doing walk-rounds in the rain at four in the morning"
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 11:48
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Agree with Herod.

Although I fell into my RAF career almost accidentally (never thought about flying until very late teens) once in, I couldn't dream of doing anything else.

32 years of continuous flying posts in a variety of helicopter roles later, je ne regrette rien.

Getting airborne in a military aircraft wondering what the poor people on the ground are doing for a living, especially when you break cloud on top and it is pissing down beneath just knocks anything a comfy university town North of London could offer into a cocked hat.

If aviation hasn't captured your imagination after UAS then it probably isn't for you.

Enjoy whatever it is you end up doing and I hope you don't regret your decision if you bang out of IOT.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 11:54
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Originally Posted by Herod
aevu.

Don't do it. You are not nearly committed enough.

D'you know what, I agree.


If the thought of NOT living in "a nice little university city some 50 miles north of London." is giving you pause for thought over being able to "fly a Typhoon from low level, right up to flight level nosebleed supersonic, night and day all over the world... The opportunity to fly the F35 off of a deck or the chance to live in any number of countries around the world as part of exchanges tours..." then you are clearly not the right person for the job. Please don't waste a valuable pilot slot on IOT.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 12:34
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Heaven forbid you might have to go and live in the middle of nowhere in a sandy dusty place with no air con, if you're lucky you might be given a tent to share and a solar shower to use. Have you really considered that you might have to go and live in really austere conditions? With no WiFi or mobile phone signal.


Take a look back at some of the RAF's deployments: The Falklands, The Gulf Wars, Bosnia, Kosovo etc etc etc.


Whilst we joke about the RAF living in hotels etc, it's not all like that.


Either man-up or pull out!
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 12:34
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IMHO, one of the biggest mistakes you make when you leave University (to pursue any career) is to try to replicate the same lifestyle. This is especially so if you're at the university I think you're at (which is also where I studied) - you're not going to replicate that experience anywhere else, and if that's what you're trying to do you're going to end up disappointed. I know, because that's exactly what I did.

Whether you go ahead with IOT or choose another path, embrace what you do for what it is, and do it the very best you can; this is the road to fulfilment and a happy life. Some aspects of your life will not be as good, some will be better. Make the best of the opportunities, shrug off the disappointments.

This isn't the last big lifestyle change you're going to have to deal with. You may get married, you may have kids; one day you will almost certainly retire. At every life change, look back and appreciate the great things you did but can no longer do, accept that you're not doing those things any more, and give the next phase of your life everything you have - as with almost everything, you get out what you put in.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 12:47
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If you are raising the question at this stage in the process, you are definitely not hungry enough. You need to want to be an RAF pilot so badly you can taste it, smell it, and feel it, nothing and I mean nothing can stand in your way. You may hold, be sent to unpalatable places, get wrung out like a rag, but if it is really what you want, you will consider it a great investment.

IOT is part of a process to deliver pilots, at peak performance, to the front line, with all the skills and capabilities needed to do Her Majesty's business.
Lives are a stake, your colleagues, your family and the Nation will be depending on you.

The RAF only selects for fast jets, transport and helicopter pilots are drawn from guys who for one reason or another could not meet the very demanding requirements.

So, unless you have a "Damascus Road" experience, it would be in your best interest to take the other road and give someone who really, really, REALLY wants it, a slot.

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