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UK MFTS on or off the rails?

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UK MFTS on or off the rails?

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Old 2nd Aug 2019, 15:29
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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I hope that I have never suggested that those currently serving are doing “ a crap job” but they do seem to be served by a crap training system, slowly eroded as Dom suggests above. If someone currently in the know can reassure me as a taxpayer and NOK that the system is not FUBAR then I shall be delighted.
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Old 2nd Aug 2019, 16:45
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dominator2
More important, how is the teaching of close formation coming along for Multi Eng students.
Formation was never taught at METS. I did formation at BFTS. The next time I did it was on my AAR course.
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Old 2nd Aug 2019, 16:47
  #323 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by high spirits
the modern day RAF is in a better place than it was under the Cold War duffers who never saw any action anyway.
Fish much?
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Old 2nd Aug 2019, 17:20
  #324 (permalink)  
 
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high spirits,

If that’s what you want to call a world class training system then you perhaps want to remove the rose tinted beer glasses for about 5 seconds. Today’s instructors are of far higher quality and the modern day RAF is in a better place than it was under the Cold War duffers who never saw any action anyway
No, I’m not after a bite. Some of the moronic and unfounded comments from ex RAF aircrew on this page just goad me to fight fire with fire.....
If that is the kind of infantile discussion in which you wish to part take, hard luck. You forget, or maybe never knew, that many of us who served for 40 years were both Cold War Warriors and saw quite a lot of action since then. Equally, many of us have a wealth of experience instructing in the myriad of systems that the RAF has introduced since the 70s. If you wish to have a mature discussion, I'm sure that some may wish to join you. No one has 100% ownership of being right all of the time.
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Old 2nd Aug 2019, 18:08
  #325 (permalink)  
 
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high spirits wrote:
2 x Phenom colliding is small beer, and yes I know how many we have.
It is quite impossible to have a serious debate with anyone who would make such a facile and frankly ridiculous statement.
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Old 2nd Aug 2019, 18:44
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by high spirits
I would argue that we are just as capable now with fewer hours to go round and that the quality of training is better. This isn’t due to more hours, but higher quality. There you go, discuss that.
In a nutshell, bollocks.
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Old 2nd Aug 2019, 18:46
  #327 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by high spirits

If formation is such an issue, why are we not having more high profile incidents with it?
Because we'd need 2 serviceable aircraft to fly formation?
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Old 2nd Aug 2019, 20:42
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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ExAscoteer

Just for accuracy, formation has been in the METS syllabus for many years. It wasn’t when I did the MEXO course in 1985, but very much so when I was a QFI 1997-2000.
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Old 2nd Aug 2019, 21:25
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I to was caught out when leading a Night AAR Convex. I assumed that the 27 year old Graduate, Creamie with 1000 hrs was trained in basic night formation
Now why on earth would you have assumed that?
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Old 2nd Aug 2019, 21:36
  #330 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by high spirits

I meant on the front line.
So did I, of course!
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Old 2nd Aug 2019, 22:07
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deltahotel
Just for accuracy, formation has been in the METS syllabus for many years. It wasn’t when I did the MEXO course in 1985, but very much so when I was a QFI 1997-2000.
I did METS in 1988 and it certainly wasn't taught then. I've checked my Logbook, my Formation training was on JP5A at Cranditz. My next exposure to Formation (on Nimrod) was my AAR course.

After that it was AAR on Albert.

Thence on the Domine

I was a QFI on the Jetstream post Domine and cannot recall teaching formation.

Last edited by ExAscoteer; 3rd Aug 2019 at 00:47.
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Old 2nd Aug 2019, 22:27
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So I guess formation was introduced some time between 1988 and 1997!
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 08:31
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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Go back to your cup of cocoa in the old folks home BEagle. What do you seriously bring to a debate on MFTS?
Rather than rise to the bait of an ad hominem attack such as this, I would merely state that only yesterday I was speaking with the CAA about possible ways of introducing better and more flexible accreditation for military pilots towards Part-FCL pilot licences, an issue which has been compounded both by the introduction of the Prefect and the significant lack of solo flight time in the current EFT syllabus.
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 11:15
  #334 (permalink)  
 
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Without wanting to go off on a tangent, is there much lateral recruitment taking place in the RAF pilot branch?
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 11:25
  #335 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flyingkeyboard
Without wanting to go off on a tangent, is there much lateral recruitment taking place in the RAF pilot branch?
Lateral recruitment? With all that sideways movement they deserve to be called crabs.
​​
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 11:27
  #336 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by high spirits
We used to throw aircraft away with monotonous regularity in the 50s-80s. I would argue that we are just as capable now with fewer hours to go round and that the quality of training is better. This isn’t due to more hours, but higher quality. There you go, discuss that.
OK, I will discuss that. In the 50s-80s the aircraft types often had difficult flying qualities compared to modern platforms. The navigation and instrument systems were not as accurate and reliable as modern systems. There were no TAWS/GPWS systems or TCAS. The operating environment was often harsher with considerably more low level, multi-ship packages. There were no ADRs from which to identify lessons to improve safety. I consider that these factors had a far greater influence upon accident rates than pilot training.

I underwent RAF pilot training in the '70s and am still involved in post-graduate training of experienced military pilots as well as still flying UK MAA regulated fast jet aircraft. Therefore, I have seen the changes in the capabilities of RAF pilots and instructional standards over the years. Many of the changes are purely in line with changes in the aviation environment overall, in particular the skill sets that are required; they are different now to 20/30/40 years ago. Top level thoughts: the ability of today's pilots is the same as what it ever was but ability is the potential to learn and fewer skill sets are actually taught and learnt. Therefore, the capabilities of today's pilots is, in some areas, less than it used to be (eg. aerobatics). Today, there is far more emphasis on flying by regulation and by numbers and less on applying judgement, both making decisions and interpreting visual and acceleration cues in order to achieve the desired flightpath of the aircraft. The problem with judgement is that you can get it wrong. The problem with regulation is what happens when a novel situation occurs? A balance of the two is required, and this is where supervision comes in as it is required to achieve the correct balance.

With respect to formation flying, the motor skills of flying 'on the wing' are not actually very perishable. However, formation leading skills are very perishable. This is mitigated in part by good SOPs. Knowledge of and adherence to these SOPs requires careful preparation, adequate briefing and practise. To my mind this is, and always has been, the biggest risk in close formation flying.

Today's military aviation world is different to that of the past. I believe that the training of the time was appropriate over the 46 years of military aviation experience that I have. Which was more fun - let's save that for a bar somewhere! Which was 'best', that can never be a meaningful argument until the day that it is proven that apples and oranges are the same.

And yes, I have flown the Phenom in formation.

Rgds

L
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 11:41
  #337 (permalink)  
 
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LOMCEVAK,

A very measured reply from a very experienced and well respected aviator.

yes, I have flown the Phenom in formation.
AND?
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 13:25
  #338 (permalink)  
 
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LOMCEVAK,

A lot has been said on these pages about the suitability of various aircraft being used under the MFTS contract. Did Boscombe Down pilots and rear crew have a say in the type selection, and who had the final say, RAF / Boscombe Down or Ascent?

Regards,
TL
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 14:05
  #339 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Timelord
LOMCEVAK,

A lot has been said on these pages about the suitability of various aircraft being used under the MFTS contract. Did Boscombe Down pilots and rear crew have a say in the type selection, and who had the final say, RAF / Boscombe Down or Ascent?

Regards,
TL
To the best of my knowledge Boscombe Down had no input whatsoever to the choice of platforms for MFTS. I believe that the types were proposed by Affinity and then accepted by Ascent following the contract bid by Affinity. Elbit was one company that formed Affinity, and I believe that the choice of the Grob 120TP and T-6 was based on knowledge from another contract that they had that used those types. However, how I why they chose the Phenom I am not sure.

Rgds

L

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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 19:26
  #340 (permalink)  
 
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Correct, BD had nothing to do with it.
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