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UK MFTS on or off the rails?

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UK MFTS on or off the rails?

Old 28th Jul 2019, 19:48
  #301 (permalink)  
 
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Dominator2,

How right you are! Scimitar, Phantom and the Vulcan could all "bite" on one or two !!

Bill
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Old 28th Jul 2019, 21:10
  #302 (permalink)  
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We might have bought 28x “Airframes” but we did buy less than that number in some rather essential bits of kit!
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Old 30th Jul 2019, 15:11
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Bent Phenom

Did the bent one get fixed?
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Old 30th Jul 2019, 15:33
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More important, how is the teaching of close formation coming along for Multi Eng students.

Has the Royal Air Force changed the syllabus to be inline with the Civvies and abandoned teaching any advanced military techniques? I hope not but the dulling down to the absolute basics seems to be prevalent.
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Old 30th Jul 2019, 17:41
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Originally Posted by Dominator2 View Post
More important, how is the teaching of close formation coming along for Multi Eng students.

Has the Royal Air Force changed the syllabus to be inline with the Civvies and abandoned teaching any advanced military techniques? I hope not but the dulling down to the absolute basics seems to be prevalent.
No.

FFS, you lot just don't trust anyone "in" these days do you. Such a shame you all buggered off and left us in such dire straits. Perhaps you could all come back and save us from ourselves.
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Old 30th Jul 2019, 18:49
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....
Will the 100 or so RAF multi-engine student pilots who are currently doing their ME training on the DA42 get their formation training from their civvy instructors or sometime later, when back with the mob ?

LFH
.......

Last edited by Lordflasheart; 30th Jul 2019 at 20:30. Reason: tense clarification as underlined
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Old 30th Jul 2019, 18:57
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JaJ

You have basically stolen my post. I was going to say the same on this and another thread but I can economise now.

As much as we appreciate the experience of our forebears maybe they could trust us a little more.

I find it funny that it is perfectly acceptable for ex-serviceman to criticise the current generation with impunity but those currently serving should always ‘respect their elders’.

I am happy to keep my powder dry most of the time and I fully accept that there are many retired people on here that are very respectful but the rantings of the few do get a little tiresome.

I mean, let’s be honest, if the government didn’t have to pay the pensions of the baby boomers maybe there would be a little more spare cash to go around.

BV

🤭
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 05:13
  #308 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lordflasheart View Post
....
Will the 100 or so RAF multi-engine student pilots who are currently doing their ME training on the DA42 get their formation training from their civvy instructors or sometime later, when back with the mob ?

LFH
.......
ME students are taught formation before they go to L3.

Anything else?
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 06:08
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...
ME students are taught formation before they go to L3. Anything else?
Ahaa ! ... On their previous single engine type(s) ..... Vaire clevvaire

....
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 08:45
  #310 (permalink)  
 
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Formation

LFH et al - hang about there! In the halcyon days of gold plated syllabi (before SAFT), lots of students (and FTS's), close formation was always taught on the JP ( the single engine option), but there was none at all on the Varsity Course (AFT) even tho' we had lots of dented Varsitys as well. There was none taught on the Shack OCU (MOTU) although I was shown it on a staff training sortie. The first formation handling sortie came on the Squadron as a co-pilot, and even some of the captains hadn't done any either.

So things haven't really changed that much regards formation
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 10:46
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How often would a typical ME pilot be required to fly close formation?
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 11:05
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TC

I’m pretty sure they do multi ship close formation aerobatics on a daily basis. Or...

Yes I’m being facetious and no, I have no idea of the correct answer. I’m sure they used to do it regularly back in the good old days though. I look forward to the stories.

BV
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 11:07
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"How often would a typical ME pilot be required to fly close formation"?
AAR in the VC10 was a vital skill.
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 12:00
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AAR in the VC10 was a vital skill
.

I was instructing on the Ten when we started to get the first pilots through the RAF training system who bypassed BFT and arrived at the OCU with just 3:45 formation time on the Firefly. It was a big shock and some needed extra hours learning a skill on an aircraft costing ten grand an hour to operate to save a couple of grand on the cheaper aircraft. Savings at the early stage lead to far greater expenditure down the line. It seems to me that MFTS with it's cut back syllabus to save cash is going to cost the customer in the long run.

My airline went down this line being an early adopter of MPL (Multi Pilot Licence) training where it was possible to have a pilot in an airliner with less than 100 hours in their logbook. It was intended these new cadets, having been heavily versed in the company mantra would able to operate to the new philosophy where SOPs could replace experience and airmanship. It turned out the base cost of MPL only offered a small saving on the cost of a CPL - but the accountants had done their job and MPL was in. However, the increased cost of extra training after failed checks and added engineering with the cost of hard landing inspections and aircraft down time meant that it was a false saving. Having been an early adopter of MPL, we are now an early rejecter of the system. All our cadets now go through the CPL system.
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 13:24
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Hi Dan! Actually it was worse than that - you needed 2 x VC10 to teach formation! Each costing £10K per hour... The MELIN lemons were really short changed.

Teaching co-pilots who hadn't had the benefit of any jet formation time previously was something of a challenge - particularly at night!

BV will moan, but the old JP course (before all that Gp 1 Ph 1 drivel) turned out generic pilots with a full training background, who were then streamed FJ, ME or RW before AFTS. Even if they went to ME, that meant the training was in the long term memory, so if they went to a type which required formation flying as a normal way of life, it wasn't a huge shock to the system. It also meant that if they became BFTS or UAS QFIs at a later date, learning formation training was pretty straightforward.
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 14:49
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Originally Posted by Tay Cough View Post
How often would a typical ME pilot be required to fly close formation?
One Nimrod variant I used to fly indulged in close formation on a regular basis. However it was on an opportunity basis, we were always the leader and the other particpants usually bore Red Star markings.

Seriously though, you need to fly close formation should you be required to participate in AAR. In 1982 we had to very rapidly generate an AAR capable element of the Nimrod force. We were able to achieve this because all the pilots had a grounding in basic formation techniques. It may have been a long time ago they learned it, but if taught correctly it's a bit like riding a bike, you might be shaky at first but regain proficiency quite quickly. It also helped enormously that many of the OCU QFIs had taught formation at BFTS. Thus we were able to transfer their skills to the Nimrod. Add the AARIs from other places to the mix to develop the skills and teach the specific AAR elements and we achieved the goals in a remarkably short time.

Would the RAF ever be required to do something like that again though? Well you may wish to consider that we never envisaged having to do it the first time around!

YS

Last edited by Yellow Sun; 31st Jul 2019 at 15:00.
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 14:52
  #317 (permalink)  
 
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BEagle, I totally agree with you. IMHO the RAF would be better equipped if all pilots were trained in all of the basics of military aviation such as formation and aerobatics. It is never known when those skills will be called upon even if initially assigned to a "large aircraft" or rotary.

BV, there are many retired aviators with a wealth of experience and every just now and then may be able to be helpful to solve today's problems. Sometimes the answer seems obvious when viewing from the outside. I do not believe that many post on this site maliciously. And yes you were being facetious.
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 15:23
  #318 (permalink)  
 
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Dominator

If you read my post properly you’d see that I pointed out that those currently serving do respect the opinions of their forebears.

What gets people backs up though is the notion that only the ‘old and bold’ can see the problems and that those of us left in are blind to the problems or solutions.

You kind of reinforced my point a little bit by immediately protesting.

Of course we could quite easily blame our forebears for handing us a sh1t sandwich couldn’t we? One that we’ve had to sort out without any help from the ‘experts’.

Before always talking down to us oiks maybe just put yourself in our shoes and think how it must feel to have to read endless posts from retired members telling us all what a crap job we are doing.

I am not saying you personally are guilty but only a blind man can’t see how several regular posters do exactly what I am suggesting.

BV
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 17:30
  #319 (permalink)  
 
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,,,,
Perhaps we will get an insight into the current thinking on the various aspects of formation flying, when the Phenom SI is published.

LFH
.........
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 18:11
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BV,

I am reluctant to say it but you appear to have a chip on your shoulder.

When you say
we could quite easily blame our forebears for handing us a sh1t sandwich couldn’t we? One that we’ve had to sort out without any help from the ‘experts’
please don't include the many of us close to the coal face who tried to stop the "sh1t sandwich" from happening.

Equally, there are many who genuinely would like to help. Believe or not but after 41 years fast jet/multi eng flying one becomes attached and maintains a strong interest. We are saddened that some Senior Officers sold their souls. Difficult to know how a few manage to sleep at night.

It is fully understood that many are working very hard to make it work, however, many things are flawed from the outset!
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