The Vietnam War
B52s stacked at one thousand feet separation from 7 to 35000ft according to the narrative, or Westmorland requesting another 200000 troops
Incredible to even contemplate. Must reread no more Vietnams now, a fascinating view of war too
Incredible to even contemplate. Must reread no more Vietnams now, a fascinating view of war too
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Commer minibuses on the streets of Saigon, how did they get there !
Then the Japanese motor industry got their act together.
Think about it....we bombed our allies and never invaded the enemy's country.
Westmoreland's strategy was Attrition....we killed more of them than the killed of us and in time they would quit and we could go home. On my second tour...I was privileged to be invited into the Battalion Briefing Room...where on the Wall I saw a Score Board....showing the Stats...."Them" and "Us". Very quickly I came to the realization at some point I could figure in those numbers if I kept returning to the game.
Abrams was about Logistics...and understood the NVA operated in reverse of the US Military. We brought supplies up behind us to support Operations where the NVA had to pre-position their supplies ahead of their troops in anticipation of Operations as we controlled the Air and Ground resupply routes.
The Cambodia Incursion yielded almost two years of very low paced Operations in the Three Corps Area as we disrupted their logistical operation.
Westmoreland's strategy was Attrition....we killed more of them than the killed of us and in time they would quit and we could go home. On my second tour...I was privileged to be invited into the Battalion Briefing Room...where on the Wall I saw a Score Board....showing the Stats...."Them" and "Us". Very quickly I came to the realization at some point I could figure in those numbers if I kept returning to the game.
Abrams was about Logistics...and understood the NVA operated in reverse of the US Military. We brought supplies up behind us to support Operations where the NVA had to pre-position their supplies ahead of their troops in anticipation of Operations as we controlled the Air and Ground resupply routes.
The Cambodia Incursion yielded almost two years of very low paced Operations in the Three Corps Area as we disrupted their logistical operation.
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And as for the 19 year olds that went out there (and their Vietnamese adversaries), I take my hat off and raise a glass to them all. Whatever the politics, them that fought, did so bravely and courageously, in many cases to the bitter end.
I always thought the Vietnam War deserved a treatment like 'The world at War' did for the second world war. From what I have see this could be the one.
EG
Traveling around Vietnam, one encounters numerous Military Cemeteries for North Vietnamese Army and Viet Long battle dead. They are very well done and honor the sacrifice made by those on the other side who were lost.
Sadly, there are no such places for the losing side and in most cases those cemeteries were bull dozed over and destroyed.
No matter how you look at it...War of any kind is a terrible thing.
Sadly, there are no such places for the losing side and in most cases those cemeteries were bull dozed over and destroyed.
No matter how you look at it...War of any kind is a terrible thing.
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It saddens me that 99% of our population would rather watch some unreality TV bilge, than try and learn something of value from the damn squawkbox in the living room.
SAS makes a valid point about war and it doesn't end on the battlefield. My brother's oldest two sons served in the Vietnam War. Upon return after their Army deployments, one committed suicide and the other eventually died from drug overdosing. The drugs prescribed were to treat his mental war demons that never went away. Today it is known as post traumatic stress syndrome.
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No spoiler hopefully. As an ex infantry soldier and helicopter pilot ( On different continents and less dangerous theatres) what really got to me was the M16 took over 4 years and a congressional investigation to become fit for purpose.
I for one will not recommend any military career for my children.
I for one will not recommend any military career for my children.
Salute!
Thank you, Turbine, for a super recommendation to the Trumpster. Not sure if you should info Mad Dog, but if he thinks the U.S. can achieve some mysterious goal or another in the 'stan, then he needs to go back in history as well.
When the recent announcement was made we Yanks would "only" send a few thousand "advisors" to the 'stan, I cringed. I told my wife, and wrote my close buddies and fellow grads from USAFA that bore the brunt of the air war - tonight there are 60,000 ghosts rising from their graves and shouting "NOT AGAIN!!!!".
My class was in a virtual tie with '65 for most KIA, and we were the top WRT POW's.
++++++++
@ Sas: With due respect, the Cambodian ground effort was cut very short, and by early 1972 the Vee had infiltrated very large ground forces to the III Corps area and stged an intense battle at An Loc - the Easter Offensive. They then raced across the DMZ and made Quang Tri a wasteland.
My A-37 unit was a major player in the air over Cambodia until all in-country USAF units folded their tents in Oct of 72. But its crowning achievement was being the last and most capable, dedicated close air support unit still in-country for the battle at An Loc. The Vee had tanks!! They had arty, they had lottsa folks. We lost more there than any other battle from 1967 - 1972, including the fellow who was interred as the "Unknown Soldier" for years before the government admitted they made a mistake. At the time, they needed an "unknown" and all the dedicated ground units were gone except a few Marines for airbase defense. Despite eyewitnesses to the crash, the military weenies wanted an "unkown".
The renewed bombing campaign up north in April/May of 1972 caused the Vee to back off that summer and there was only sporadic firefights the rest of the year. So I got back in October, and had the oppo to hit Hanoi during the Christmas blitz in my new ride - A-7D. I can guarantee that our only goal was to get our friends out of prison and all go home. The South was on its own. Our direct involvement was over, tho we bombed Cambodia for another few months, and I was one of the last dozen fighters to hit Laos and then cross the Thai border with a few seconds to spare one day in late February 1973.
Gums recalls...
Thank you, Turbine, for a super recommendation to the Trumpster. Not sure if you should info Mad Dog, but if he thinks the U.S. can achieve some mysterious goal or another in the 'stan, then he needs to go back in history as well.
When the recent announcement was made we Yanks would "only" send a few thousand "advisors" to the 'stan, I cringed. I told my wife, and wrote my close buddies and fellow grads from USAFA that bore the brunt of the air war - tonight there are 60,000 ghosts rising from their graves and shouting "NOT AGAIN!!!!".
My class was in a virtual tie with '65 for most KIA, and we were the top WRT POW's.
++++++++
@ Sas: With due respect, the Cambodian ground effort was cut very short, and by early 1972 the Vee had infiltrated very large ground forces to the III Corps area and stged an intense battle at An Loc - the Easter Offensive. They then raced across the DMZ and made Quang Tri a wasteland.
My A-37 unit was a major player in the air over Cambodia until all in-country USAF units folded their tents in Oct of 72. But its crowning achievement was being the last and most capable, dedicated close air support unit still in-country for the battle at An Loc. The Vee had tanks!! They had arty, they had lottsa folks. We lost more there than any other battle from 1967 - 1972, including the fellow who was interred as the "Unknown Soldier" for years before the government admitted they made a mistake. At the time, they needed an "unknown" and all the dedicated ground units were gone except a few Marines for airbase defense. Despite eyewitnesses to the crash, the military weenies wanted an "unkown".
The renewed bombing campaign up north in April/May of 1972 caused the Vee to back off that summer and there was only sporadic firefights the rest of the year. So I got back in October, and had the oppo to hit Hanoi during the Christmas blitz in my new ride - A-7D. I can guarantee that our only goal was to get our friends out of prison and all go home. The South was on its own. Our direct involvement was over, tho we bombed Cambodia for another few months, and I was one of the last dozen fighters to hit Laos and then cross the Thai border with a few seconds to spare one day in late February 1973.
Gums recalls...
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Most of us Vietnam War Veterans in the U.S. feel that this is a one-sided, half-truth documentary unworthy of watching. I saw the first two episodes, then turned it off. So many facts were wrong, photos did not match the audio descriptions, many facts omitted.
This documentary on the Vietnam War breathes new life into the anti-war message, and fits perfectly into the current practice of revising history to make us feel good. Watch carefully, but I would advise a heavy dose of skepticism.
This documentary on the Vietnam War breathes new life into the anti-war message, and fits perfectly into the current practice of revising history to make us feel good. Watch carefully, but I would advise a heavy dose of skepticism.
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9LC
Interesting, I must say l didn't get that impression. I thought the Vets interviewed came across well and l was impressed that conscripts and volunteers on the whole put up with their lot with what can be described as stoicism and bravery in the face of dogma that they knew was false.
What do I know however. I was 2 at the time of Tet.
Interesting, I must say l didn't get that impression. I thought the Vets interviewed came across well and l was impressed that conscripts and volunteers on the whole put up with their lot with what can be described as stoicism and bravery in the face of dogma that they knew was false.
What do I know however. I was 2 at the time of Tet.
A USAF colleague on my Staff College course at Bracknell had been shot down and posted missing. He was not notified as a POW. Over time he was presumed dead. Then somebody recognized him on a propaganda clip (just before Christmas, I think). He was eventually released and reunited with his family. He and his wife related their respective experiences and emotions to an enthralled audience of fellow students and their wives. It was a very moving experience. Sorry my memory is a bit hazy after all these years - maybe someone can fill in the gaps?
Gums,
Air Force math at work....April 1970 to Easter 1972 is almost two years by Army Math.
I was there from day one of the Cambodia thing (and before we were inside there)....but my stay got cut short by some .51 Caliber AAA fire up north of Bu Dop.
On my first Tour, I slung load one of your A-37's from Vinh Long to Bien Hoa one evening....after it had a hydraulics failure. All went well until one of the Sling Points on to the A-37 broke and caused the aircraft to hang one wing down....we got it down with just a small ding to the Wing Tank fin.
Air Force math at work....April 1970 to Easter 1972 is almost two years by Army Math.
I was there from day one of the Cambodia thing (and before we were inside there)....but my stay got cut short by some .51 Caliber AAA fire up north of Bu Dop.
On my first Tour, I slung load one of your A-37's from Vinh Long to Bien Hoa one evening....after it had a hydraulics failure. All went well until one of the Sling Points on to the A-37 broke and caused the aircraft to hang one wing down....we got it down with just a small ding to the Wing Tank fin.
Salute!
@ Sas:
No problem with basic math. The Vee used the two years to move lottsa stuf down south because Nixon had implemented the "Vietnamization" deal. I was BZ those years training the VNAF pilots to fly the Dragonfly.
I ain't gonna quibble about years, but during those years the Vee did a lot of things that made the 1972 spring thing so awful. They did a lot more from early 1973 to early 1975.
On the good side....... We had more than one Dragonfly hoisted and flown back to Bien Hoa by the 'nooks. My own flameout landing jet at Saigon got carried back by one of yours, heh heh.
Keep the faith, brother.
Gums sends...
@ Sas:
No problem with basic math. The Vee used the two years to move lottsa stuf down south because Nixon had implemented the "Vietnamization" deal. I was BZ those years training the VNAF pilots to fly the Dragonfly.
I ain't gonna quibble about years, but during those years the Vee did a lot of things that made the 1972 spring thing so awful. They did a lot more from early 1973 to early 1975.
On the good side....... We had more than one Dragonfly hoisted and flown back to Bien Hoa by the 'nooks. My own flameout landing jet at Saigon got carried back by one of yours, heh heh.
Keep the faith, brother.
Gums sends...
For those who can't access the show I did find one episode here. Other docos come up from a "The Vietnam War" search on y'tube, but if they relate to this series I've not yet established.
Just watched the first episode and I hope the rest are as good.
It showed how easily a change of personalities and a paranoia about communism took the US relationship with Vietnam (and Ho Chi Minh in particular) from friend (and supplier of arms) to foe. What an almighty foreign policy f*ckup.
It showed how easily a change of personalities and a paranoia about communism took the US relationship with Vietnam (and Ho Chi Minh in particular) from friend (and supplier of arms) to foe. What an almighty foreign policy f*ckup.
crab, all wars are a result of policy f*ckup. We, your country, the US and mine, are involved in another at the moment. Communism was a real concern at the time for a number of reasons, you'll remember the Malaysian emergency for one.
