USN C-2 Greyhounds
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'megan' / 'CaptainDart' I learn something new every day. Here is a comment from an A4G LSO about the Tracker/S-2E/G technique aboard MELBOURNE. Now I understand the comment on the JPG attached showing an RAN Tracker about to catch No.1 wire with 'MEATBALL' our first A4G LSO in attendance. 
Never did EMCON in A4G in my time onboard. MELBOURNE mirror JPG shows One Red Cut Light (lights duplicated on tuther side).
The last JPG shows MELBOURNE MIRROR with a row of Vertical Lights on the other side - however they are not seen in an early MELBOURNE MIRROR photo so I guess these were added at some time. Getting more information about this. Then there is the Portable Mirror at NAS Nowra on RW 26 near 'J' Hangar, with an odd light combo. Another FAAM Mirror Inside shows the extra lights but they are not on Sea Venom/Gannet era Mirror nor on early A4G/S2 era Mirror so I'll guess added later. But what were they? Last JPG shows Venom/Gannet MELBOURNE era with 6 wires & 2 mirrors.
Never did EMCON in A4G in my time onboard. MELBOURNE mirror JPG shows One Red Cut Light (lights duplicated on tuther side).
"There were cut lights on the mirror and they were activated by the ‘pickle’ switch in the LSO’s hand. The LSO activated the cut lights depending on where the S2 was as it was crossing the roundown- a little earlier if high/fast; a little later if low/slow with the aim of picking up a 3 wire. When the pilot saw the cut lights illuminate, power back to idle and ‘set’ the landing attitude. Trackers rarely boltered but you had to keep an eye on them to call a bolter as the LSO was the first to know.
The cut lights were also used for Jets during EMCON (no radio transmissions unless required). As the aircraft turned onto final they were activated to acknowledge the (silent) ball call. Thereafter a blip of the cut lights for a power call unless a concise transmission was necessary. BTW more than once a Tracker crew were waved off in close because the LSO hit the wrong switch!"
The cut lights were also used for Jets during EMCON (no radio transmissions unless required). As the aircraft turned onto final they were activated to acknowledge the (silent) ball call. Thereafter a blip of the cut lights for a power call unless a concise transmission was necessary. BTW more than once a Tracker crew were waved off in close because the LSO hit the wrong switch!"
Last JPG shows Venom/Gannet MELBOURNE era with 6 wires & 2 mirrors.
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 28th Jul 2017 at 12:44. Reason: Extra Lights JPG & INFO + FAAM Mirror Outside
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Thank you Evalu8ter very informative and some good reading.
Fallmonk,
The F-135 engine (sans lift fan) can fit into a V-22 using a cradle rather than container. This article also has some interesting notes about the relative capabilities of the CMV-22B versus the old C-2. It seems the former can deliver appreciably more cargo at long range, with the advantage of being able to land direct on the 'phibs. Handy if your broken F-135 is on an LHA or LHD.....http://navalaviationnews.navylive.do...s-golden-mile/
If a naval power only had VTOL capable fleet carriers the CMV-22B would seem to be a sensible option......
The F-135 engine (sans lift fan) can fit into a V-22 using a cradle rather than container. This article also has some interesting notes about the relative capabilities of the CMV-22B versus the old C-2. It seems the former can deliver appreciably more cargo at long range, with the advantage of being able to land direct on the 'phibs. Handy if your broken F-135 is on an LHA or LHD.....http://navalaviationnews.navylive.do...s-golden-mile/
If a naval power only had VTOL capable fleet carriers the CMV-22B would seem to be a sensible option......
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VIDEO: RN Admirable invents Mirror - wot a good chap was he.... + S2E/G Carrier Approach 90 KIAS from NATOPS with a funni RAN FAA instructor/stud S-2 MELBOURNE approach.
Second Video shows early A4G/S2E era MIRROR without CUT LIGHTS.
Second Video shows early A4G/S2E era MIRROR without CUT LIGHTS.
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 29th Jul 2017 at 01:33.
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Interesting to me to see my own memory was not so faulty re Trackers approaching MELBOURNE in the early days - after that we see from this e-mail from an old S2E/G pilot - then LSO in USofA on exchange - that the situation changed and changed again:
"...the question re Tracker Deck landing technique? All my landings prior to going to the USN on exchange (January 1973) were normal powered approaches to the deck & on touchdown full power selected until hook engagement ensured- i.e. same as the A4! That all changed for me when I went to the USN -Trackers/ S2 CODs flew the Cut pass to improve Boarding Rate - Turbo Props i.e. E2 & Greyhound Cod flew normal Powered approaches to the deck same as the Jets.
As an LSO on CVW11 & VS35 /VS38 I waved Trackers/S2 COD's with Cut passes & F4's/A7's/A6's'/EA6B's/ EA3's/E2's/Greyhound COD's with normal powered approaches into the wires. The Jet Puke LSO's didn't want to Wave Prop Pukes anyway-particularly @ 0200!!
Meanwhile back @ home influence was brought to bear- probably from the USN trained Tracker Pilots & LSO's & around about 1974 cut passes were trailed/introduced both for MADDL's [our & RN FAA term for USN FCLPs] & DL's to improve boarding rate etc.
I didn't go back to the Melbourne Deck until 1982 with VS816 [Trackers] as SP & Terry... was CO - I think Froggy ... or possibly ... was CAG LSO & my memory is a bit weak but I was in favour of the powered approach over the cut - my opinion the "cut" allowed the Pilot to be "slack" - fly the aircraft into a ballpark position & leave the responsibility to the LSO to "cut" onto the deck! Anyway I vaguely seem to Remember for the last Melbourne Cruise (1981) Tracker/Seaking/Wessex that we did a bit of each ie. If Boarding Rate an issue- rough conditions/Admiral /Captain/BigF (FDO?) with knickers in a knot then a Verbal Cut or Cut Lights could be given or if above not an issue then the pass flown to the deck as a normal powered approach! Obviously briefed etc. With the LSO calling the shots! Other better qualified or memorized folk may dispute the latter- I'll just claim the 5th or whatever!..." via e-mail
As an LSO on CVW11 & VS35 /VS38 I waved Trackers/S2 COD's with Cut passes & F4's/A7's/A6's'/EA6B's/ EA3's/E2's/Greyhound COD's with normal powered approaches into the wires. The Jet Puke LSO's didn't want to Wave Prop Pukes anyway-particularly @ 0200!!
Meanwhile back @ home influence was brought to bear- probably from the USN trained Tracker Pilots & LSO's & around about 1974 cut passes were trailed/introduced both for MADDL's [our & RN FAA term for USN FCLPs] & DL's to improve boarding rate etc.
I didn't go back to the Melbourne Deck until 1982 with VS816 [Trackers] as SP & Terry... was CO - I think Froggy ... or possibly ... was CAG LSO & my memory is a bit weak but I was in favour of the powered approach over the cut - my opinion the "cut" allowed the Pilot to be "slack" - fly the aircraft into a ballpark position & leave the responsibility to the LSO to "cut" onto the deck! Anyway I vaguely seem to Remember for the last Melbourne Cruise (1981) Tracker/Seaking/Wessex that we did a bit of each ie. If Boarding Rate an issue- rough conditions/Admiral /Captain/BigF (FDO?) with knickers in a knot then a Verbal Cut or Cut Lights could be given or if above not an issue then the pass flown to the deck as a normal powered approach! Obviously briefed etc. With the LSO calling the shots! Other better qualified or memorized folk may dispute the latter- I'll just claim the 5th or whatever!..." via e-mail
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 29th Jul 2017 at 11:11. Reason: bolding
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The FrogMan Hamming It Up for the MOVIES.... More HAM that can fit in a SPAMCAN - go BEACHBALL! S-2 Right Hand Wing Tip had around a six foot clearance on centre line from island.
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 29th Jul 2017 at 16:55. Reason: add stuff
E2 & Greyhound Cod flew normal Powered approaches to the deck same as the Jets.
I have been told that that is me in the colour image above. I was a young and stupid 22 year old. Beachball was my Senior Pilot after 'Whacka' P. (much respect to both). I was on board for 3 cruises in 1980/81 and always got a cut (often 'blue water' cuts from the jet LSO's).
I recall a funny article, possibly in Approach magazine where the group of LSOs on a large US carrier kept passing around the pickle switch as a COD entered the pattern, but no one on the platform was sure how to a handle it. Maybe it was the C1, the COD derivative of the Tracker. It was titled 'Who's Gonna Cut the COD?'.
I recall a funny article, possibly in Approach magazine where the group of LSOs on a large US carrier kept passing around the pickle switch as a COD entered the pattern, but no one on the platform was sure how to a handle it. Maybe it was the C1, the COD derivative of the Tracker. It was titled 'Who's Gonna Cut the COD?'.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 29th Jul 2017 at 23:49.
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Good onya Capn - as long as you are not a lawndart. Nobody I know knows who you are but I'll investigate. Original Photo by Nick Thorne (OBS) here:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F..._Melbourne.jpg
Good Ole Boy WHACKA Payne - he still lives around Nowra. BeachBall not sure - mebbe he is Beached Is: [Good APPROACH story]
Some of this book (if not all) may be read online here [OLD LSO so maybe a bit of dated info]:
Wave-Off!: A History of LSOs and Ship-Board Landings By Robert "Boom" Powell
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...COD%3F&f=false
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F..._Melbourne.jpg
Good Ole Boy WHACKA Payne - he still lives around Nowra. BeachBall not sure - mebbe he is Beached Is: [Good APPROACH story] Some of this book (if not all) may be read online here [OLD LSO so maybe a bit of dated info]:
Wave-Off!: A History of LSOs and Ship-Board Landings By Robert "Boom" Powell
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...COD%3F&f=false
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 30th Jul 2017 at 00:37. Reason: photo info
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In effect 'no cut' but 'no add full power during arrest'? Do you have an URL / link to this Greyhound NATOPS please? TAH.
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'megan' of course YOU know me but not tuther way around - anyhoo lots of good NavAv stuff here: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/
Do you have the page number for the C-2 NATOPS reference above please? I do not intend to buy the manual however it seems the pages are viewable. TAH.
Do you have the page number for the C-2 NATOPS reference above please? I do not intend to buy the manual however it seems the pages are viewable. TAH.
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C-2A Greyhound Carrier Landing Pattern NATOPS page 322 of the numbered pages at the above URL. TEXT is from the excerpt graphic below:
PDF for the Carrier Landing Graphic on page 322 of the C-2A NATOPS above reference attached.
C-2A NATOPS Carrier Approach Technique Excerpt
"...When the meatball appears in the center of the mirror, reduce power to approximately 1,000 horsepower to start a rate of descent that will keep the meatball centered. Report sidenumber, meatball, model and state.
Glideslope corrections should be made early to maintain a centered meatball and optimum angle of attack. Control altitude with power, and angle of attack with the elevators. Once lineup(sic). Make necessary correction immediately, but smoothly. Keep the aircraft on the glideslope and centerline all the way down. Do not flare. Fly the aircraft right onto the deck.
WARNING
Maintain approach power upon touchdown. Do not move power levers into the taxi range until the aircraft has come to a complete stop. If a bolter occurs and the power levers were inadvertently placed in the taxi range, moderate to heavy forward pressure on power levers, while against the stop detents, will prevent depressing the power levers into the flight range. A firm downward thrust must be applied to the power levers to position them in the flight range permitting power to be added...."
"...When the meatball appears in the center of the mirror, reduce power to approximately 1,000 horsepower to start a rate of descent that will keep the meatball centered. Report sidenumber, meatball, model and state.
Glideslope corrections should be made early to maintain a centered meatball and optimum angle of attack. Control altitude with power, and angle of attack with the elevators. Once lineup(sic). Make necessary correction immediately, but smoothly. Keep the aircraft on the glideslope and centerline all the way down. Do not flare. Fly the aircraft right onto the deck.
WARNING
Maintain approach power upon touchdown. Do not move power levers into the taxi range until the aircraft has come to a complete stop. If a bolter occurs and the power levers were inadvertently placed in the taxi range, moderate to heavy forward pressure on power levers, while against the stop detents, will prevent depressing the power levers into the flight range. A firm downward thrust must be applied to the power levers to position them in the flight range permitting power to be added...."
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 30th Jul 2017 at 20:02. Reason: add graphics & text + PDF
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Prolly 'megan' refers to the radial engine T-28C Trojan Deck Landing technique as shown in this NATOPS diagram.
"MIRROR/LENS APPROACH
...Near the ramp, the LSO will give the cut signal. Following the cut, the 82 KIAS attitude will be maintained and the aircraft will touch down with the nose wheel 10-12 inches off the deck. The throttle is closed at the cut signal and remains closed throughout the landing roll-out. In the event of a bolter, simultaneously lower the nose to the deck, add full power, retract speed brake, and effect a touch-and-go landing.
WAVEOFF
A waveoff is a critical situation...."
...Near the ramp, the LSO will give the cut signal. Following the cut, the 82 KIAS attitude will be maintained and the aircraft will touch down with the nose wheel 10-12 inches off the deck. The throttle is closed at the cut signal and remains closed throughout the landing roll-out. In the event of a bolter, simultaneously lower the nose to the deck, add full power, retract speed brake, and effect a touch-and-go landing.
WAVEOFF
A waveoff is a critical situation...."
