European Army
HH:-
Yer avin a larf, aintcher? Any army that is modelled on UN multi national "peacekeeping" is one for all to fear, good or bad! The continual use of NATO as justification for this disparate melange, that will no doubt be swiftly outfitted in some Ruritanian confection to impress as it parades down the Champs Elysees or the Unter den Linden, is as irritating as suggesting a Rolex is no different from a cheap Changi watch. Such imitation is definitely not flattery!
To start with it'll be like a UN force but ever so gradually the weaker countries will become dependent on it (and won't be able to afford modern kit) paying a proportion of the cost. It's a logical extension of the NATO aircraft sharing type arrangement
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I agree - the problem is people are looking at the detail - the big picture over the last 60+ years is clearly that the main western European countries are very gradually coming closer and closer
Common standards, convergence on laws, open frontiers, customs union, common currency, freedom of movement, shared military assets - all of these were seen as impossible (especially by the UK) in the '50's
How far you extrapolate that over the next 60 years is up to you but if I was a betting man I'd go with the direction of flow = further integration.........................
Good or Bad is a personal call IMHO
Common standards, convergence on laws, open frontiers, customs union, common currency, freedom of movement, shared military assets - all of these were seen as impossible (especially by the UK) in the '50's
How far you extrapolate that over the next 60 years is up to you but if I was a betting man I'd go with the direction of flow = further integration.........................
Good or Bad is a personal call IMHO
HH:-
No problem with that. Surely that is the whole point of this discussion. You think that history is on the side of the EU and that it will go on from strength to strength. I don't.
All of the processes that you cite in your post lead inevitably to more and more power being concentrated at the centre, with less and less of it at the national level. That is the very trend that led to Brexit (just!), in my opinion. As it moves inexorably on it will lead to more friction and more resistance. You have already spoken of smaller nations being obliged to support a European Army. Obliged hasn't worked too well in the past has it? What happens when a State stops being obliged and instead moves to resist? Is that when the European Army has its first real test? Is that when the European Civil War begins?
As one Tory grandee once remarked on the difficulties that can be encountered in your inevitable Grand Projet, "Events, dear boy, events!".
Good or Bad is a personal call IMHO
All of the processes that you cite in your post lead inevitably to more and more power being concentrated at the centre, with less and less of it at the national level. That is the very trend that led to Brexit (just!), in my opinion. As it moves inexorably on it will lead to more friction and more resistance. You have already spoken of smaller nations being obliged to support a European Army. Obliged hasn't worked too well in the past has it? What happens when a State stops being obliged and instead moves to resist? Is that when the European Army has its first real test? Is that when the European Civil War begins?
As one Tory grandee once remarked on the difficulties that can be encountered in your inevitable Grand Projet, "Events, dear boy, events!".
From 1945 in effect they had NATO looking after them, since then they still have NATO looking after them, despite not paying for it.
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HH
Do you work on a day to day basis with many Europeans? I'm not sure those I work with would agree with you.
Without descending to Jet Blast I'd only observe that for the last 65 years people in the UK have been forecasting the "imminent" collapse of the EU but it seems to carry on and even grow - and grow closer ............
I don't think it's jealousy or envy - I just think we see the world in different ways and we REALLY don't understand their commitment to the idea
I don't think it's jealousy or envy - I just think we see the world in different ways and we REALLY don't understand their commitment to the idea
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After what we were promised by the Remain camp, what would a trading block want with an army? Unless of course they lied, and they have no intention of remaining as such and have federal plans.
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Opening post : " been mocked as a fantasy many times.." The day we see French forces deployed in harms way for anything not directly related to French national self-interest you can add the "Now"
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Cunning Artificer
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From 1945 in effect they had NATO looking after them, since then they still have NATO looking after them, despite not paying for it.
NATO was, and remains, a defensively based alliance of individual sovereign states. The "European Army" is a political creation of those who plan the ever closer union of EU member states. There is nothing logical about it. Nonetheless many believe such closer union to be logical and a guarantor of future peace in Europe.
I would respectfully suggest that they are greatly in error. Once that unity leads to total power at the centre, at the cost of the sovereignty of constituent states, then you have all the makings of future conflict. The world has been here before, many times. Are we forever to repeat history rather than to learn from it?
NATO kept the peace in Europe, not the EU or its many other manifestations, mainly through the existence of Article 5 of the Treaty. That restriction would scarcely apply if NATO were replaced by a European Army threatening the suppression of a would be secessionist state. Hence are the bitterest of all wars started, ie civil wars.
I would respectfully suggest that they are greatly in error. Once that unity leads to total power at the centre, at the cost of the sovereignty of constituent states, then you have all the makings of future conflict. The world has been here before, many times. Are we forever to repeat history rather than to learn from it?
NATO kept the peace in Europe, not the EU or its many other manifestations, mainly through the existence of Article 5 of the Treaty. That restriction would scarcely apply if NATO were replaced by a European Army threatening the suppression of a would be secessionist state. Hence are the bitterest of all wars started, ie civil wars.
Yes, NATO kept the peace but it had those rotters the Americans in it.
The EU's unelected suits haven't a clue - and they can't see beyond the anti-Americanism that lies at the heart of it - the EU army is simply more posturing from the likes of Juncker and Verhofstadt..
This phrase "ever closer union" is v dangerous.. It's suitably vague and it can encompass the desires and aspirations of different countries - with the added bonus that nowhere are its bounds specified.
Woody Allen said it best: "A relationship, I think, is like a shark. You know? It has to constantly move forward or it dies. And I think what we got on our hands is a dead shark."
The EU's unelected suits haven't a clue - and they can't see beyond the anti-Americanism that lies at the heart of it - the EU army is simply more posturing from the likes of Juncker and Verhofstadt..This phrase "ever closer union" is v dangerous.. It's suitably vague and it can encompass the desires and aspirations of different countries - with the added bonus that nowhere are its bounds specified.
Woody Allen said it best: "A relationship, I think, is like a shark. You know? It has to constantly move forward or it dies. And I think what we got on our hands is a dead shark."
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Considering the lamentable absence of political resolve within Europe to do anything beyond hand-wringing when faced with genocide on its own doorstep, the precedent isn't promising. But I'm sure it'll have a first-rate restaurant.
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I spend most of my life working with non-UK personnel TBH.
As ever everyone has their own views - there's really no "French " view any more than there is a "UK" view that everyone subscribes to
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I reckon its an army in name only they are wanting.
Its not for fighting wars external to the EU as such.
Its so they have their own force they can put down any civil unrest in the EU population when there is any doubt that the locals won't do it.
Plenty of old talent in population control left in politics after the wall came down.
Its not for fighting wars external to the EU as such.
Its so they have their own force they can put down any civil unrest in the EU population when there is any doubt that the locals won't do it.
Plenty of old talent in population control left in politics after the wall came down.
Starting to think that the Wall coming down was a bad thing and re-unification even worse.
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Now there's wishful thinking at its finest. The EU can't even defend itself against the threat of rampant immigrants, never mind the threat of a billigerent military force. I wish all y'all well, but I am not optimistic.
Even if through some miracle an Euro Force were created, I firmly believe it would more likely be used to quell internal opposition to the EU than any external threat. Think the "peacekeepers" in the Hunger Games movie series.
Even if through some miracle an Euro Force were created, I firmly believe it would more likely be used to quell internal opposition to the EU than any external threat. Think the "peacekeepers" in the Hunger Games movie series.
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"The EU can't even defend itself against the threat of rampant immigrants,"
true but doing better than some others Ken..............
Illegal Immigrants in EU 547,000 (2014)
Illegal Immigrants in USA 11.4 million (2012)
true but doing better than some others Ken..............
Illegal Immigrants in EU 547,000 (2014)
Illegal Immigrants in USA 11.4 million (2012)