Air Traffic Controllers
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Two controllers at ERD with double-header consoles, as shown. The Tracker occupies a specially-equipped dedicated position ... possibly the one in the far background.
Had a thought; could this be Eastern after Lindholme had closed thus allowing for two sectors (North Sea and Mainland)? Eastern didn't close until much later did it?
Last edited by chevvron; 4th Oct 2017 at 11:35.
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Northolt radar is done from the TC part of Swanwick to integrate with the London TMA controllers at NATS. It works well, however this once again proves the issues that the branch faces.
Called LJAO, then SEJAO; I presume it goes under another name nowadays.
Oh and off route, the civil and military FIS suites were next to each other in their own little control room next to D & D - very convenient!
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Pedant mode on:
It was SEJAO then LJAO - but no harm done and you're forgiven!!!!
Pedant mode off.
It was SEJAO then LJAO - but no harm done and you're forgiven!!!!
Pedant mode off.
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Military ATM Training
Haltonapp,
I've been an RAF ATCO for 40+ years and have served at various airfields in the UK and Germany, as well as over 3 years in LJAO, working alongside my civil colleagues. I did the JATCC in the early 1970s, served as an instructor in the mid 1980s and am currently one of the staff at SAOC, the new name for CATCS, RAF Shawbury, so I think I'm well qualified to comment on your remark about military ATM training. The JATCC today is longer than the 16 week JATCC I completed and much more comprehensive because of the changes to rules and legislation. Furthermore, although live flying for ATM training ended in the late 1980s, the current simulators are perfectly suitable for the task and will be updated within the next five years under Project Marshall. In other words, those that graduate from the JATCC today are perfectly well prepared for the duties they then undertake at their units.
When I first began my career, an old military ATCO said to me that if you never admit to having had an incident you've either not being an ATCO for very long or you've never been anywhere really busy or you're not telling the truth. Unfortunately, incidents involving ATCOs, whether civil or military, will always take place and, in the overall scheme of things, this was by no means the worst. I was in LJAO when the airmiss between a Vulcan and an Air France Concorde occurred on the Seaford sector - now that really was a very close call!
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I've been an RAF ATCO for 40+ years and have served at various airfields in the UK and Germany, as well as over 3 years in LJAO, working alongside my civil colleagues. I did the JATCC in the early 1970s, served as an instructor in the mid 1980s and am currently one of the staff at SAOC, the new name for CATCS, RAF Shawbury, so I think I'm well qualified to comment on your remark about military ATM training. The JATCC today is longer than the 16 week JATCC I completed and much more comprehensive because of the changes to rules and legislation. Furthermore, although live flying for ATM training ended in the late 1980s, the current simulators are perfectly suitable for the task and will be updated within the next five years under Project Marshall. In other words, those that graduate from the JATCC today are perfectly well prepared for the duties they then undertake at their units.
When I first began my career, an old military ATCO said to me that if you never admit to having had an incident you've either not being an ATCO for very long or you've never been anywhere really busy or you're not telling the truth. Unfortunately, incidents involving ATCOs, whether civil or military, will always take place and, in the overall scheme of things, this was by no means the worst. I was in LJAO when the airmiss between a Vulcan and an Air France Concorde occurred on the Seaford sector - now that really was a very close call!
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(I was ERD Jun 70-Sep 73 & Oct 76-Sep 78)
Greetings to fellow Mil SEJAO controllers (Sep 73-Dec 74 only, before being posted to HQ MATO)
I was apparently the first to be pushed straight into SEJAO after a few weeks getting an AC(L) endorsement in the MAS room, on the basis of my 4+ years experience at ERD. A most interesting and stimulating environment, with (IIRC) only one major cock-up on my part!
When producing estimates for Mil crossings, one quickly learned that an F-4/F-111 took 5 minutes to cover the length of a chinagraph pencil on the flat-top displays
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When producing estimates for Mil crossings, one quickly learned that an F-4/F-111 took 5 minutes to cover the length of a chinagraph pencil on the flat-top displays
Not to mention 'all crossings via WOBUN' to the extent that RACAL produced a lovely miniature TRN-26 TACAN (anyone know what happened to it?) so that USAFE aircraft could route that way, accurate like!!
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Are RAF air traffic controllers, trained at Shawbury, up to the standard required to control traffic at Northolt? This is in regard to the airprox last year between an A380 and a Gulfstream, the controller became distracted and concerns were also raised at the manpower levels.
The incident in question was a simple case of distraction. The controller was operating band boxed due to manning issues, and was engaged in a coordination phone call with anothe sector. It is an extremely tight bit of airspace, where it is imperative that the offset base/finals turn is made at exactly the right time; too early, and the PAR will not be able to lock on (the dog leg is at the extreme of the PAR azimuth coverage), too late, and you end up potentially interacting with Heathrow.
The incident highlighted that the task should have been split, thus man I is required to achieve this; something that is not sorted over night as you need to train the new people. Secondly, it highlighted the dangers of distraction, something that has been used to good effect with our HF sessions. Thirdly, it proved that the safety nets; Controller scan (from Fin), STCA and now PIT work to reduce the chances of an aircraft accident.
Perhaps the real issue is manning levels - more and more RAF stations seem to be short of trained ATC such that they have to 'close' to allow lunch breaks etc - this has happened this year at Brize, Boscombe ad Shawbury to my knowledge.
I have heard a statement recently at Shawbury that if all the applicants for ATC who went through the AFCO doors were all to pass the JATCC the trade would still be 20% under strength.
KPax
I should think that the RAF ATCO salary scale compared with NATS would put a lot of folk off - top whack at Swanwick/Heathrow after about 15 years is more than Air Commodore top increment and without all the BS!
I guess the service might be slightly ahead in the first 4 or 5 years then NATS pay races ahead.
I guess the service might be slightly ahead in the first 4 or 5 years then NATS pay races ahead.
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Not everyone wants to stay in the same place forever, when there are overseas tours ... oh, forget I started that, I'm almost 60 years out of date!
Looking through the wrong end of the telescope, and vaguely knowing what it's like in the RAF nowadays, I'd probably (sadly) be inclined to take the Civil route.
The RAF is not what it was, for so many reasons.
Looking through the wrong end of the telescope, and vaguely knowing what it's like in the RAF nowadays, I'd probably (sadly) be inclined to take the Civil route.
The RAF is not what it was, for so many reasons.
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As an AirTrafficer who never laboured in the dungeons of Area Radar (there to sit like rows of poor battery hens, never to see the light of day), but dwelt in a Tower, where there were blue skies (occasionally), fluffy white clouds, green grass, birdies, aeroplanes (even if only computer-generated phantoms), and all life passing below your air-conditioned octagon eyrie, might I suggest that, if a publicity drive were to stress these points, you might get more applicants ?
It is the best job in G.D. - bar flying (if you dodge Area Radar as aforesaid), comes with cups of tea on the hour from beauteous Assistants, what more d'ye want (Promotion ? Forget it !) Remember that the Branch was originally set up to provide a "Sunset Home" for all the old hairy ex-aircrew from WWII who did not like the idea of the cold peacetime world outside.
[email protected] (#33),
..."they have to 'close' to allow lunch breaks etc - this has happened this year at Brize, Boscombe and Shawbury * to my knowledge"... So they are short, and have (presumably) had to rob the Tower crews to keep Area radar staffed. Why not put more of your smarter Assistants up for S.S. Commissions, because obviously the pay rates are insufficient to attract external candidates ?
Note: * Shawbury used to be manned by the School staff in turn as R&R from their instructional duties. Should've been plenty of them there.
Another possibility: GD Pilots and WSOs could do a ground tour on ATC after a "Short Course" at Shawbury. At Linton '62-'64, the RN Controllers were Seaman Branch on ground tour, after which they went back to sea (so they told me - Union Jack ?).
Mind you, at the rate they're closing Stations, they should have ATCs coming out of their ears !
Danny.
It is the best job in G.D. - bar flying (if you dodge Area Radar as aforesaid), comes with cups of tea on the hour from beauteous Assistants, what more d'ye want (Promotion ? Forget it !) Remember that the Branch was originally set up to provide a "Sunset Home" for all the old hairy ex-aircrew from WWII who did not like the idea of the cold peacetime world outside.
[email protected] (#33),
..."they have to 'close' to allow lunch breaks etc - this has happened this year at Brize, Boscombe and Shawbury * to my knowledge"... So they are short, and have (presumably) had to rob the Tower crews to keep Area radar staffed. Why not put more of your smarter Assistants up for S.S. Commissions, because obviously the pay rates are insufficient to attract external candidates ?
Note: * Shawbury used to be manned by the School staff in turn as R&R from their instructional duties. Should've been plenty of them there.
Another possibility: GD Pilots and WSOs could do a ground tour on ATC after a "Short Course" at Shawbury. At Linton '62-'64, the RN Controllers were Seaman Branch on ground tour, after which they went back to sea (so they told me - Union Jack ?).
Mind you, at the rate they're closing Stations, they should have ATCs coming out of their ears !
Danny.
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Danny, they make them Sgts now. Direct entry as well as promoting assistants.
Commissioned Officers are becoming rare in towers, and in Area Radar.
A short course for aircrew is not the answer, more people who want to do air traffic is what's required. I suspect that part of the reason that so few people doing it want to recommend it, is that everywhere is short staffed. Also relevant is that as one of the very few blue suit jobs on camp, ATC are getting dicked for secondary duties more than they used to.
I loved my time in Area Radar, I dreaded it, based on what everyone in towers told me, but once I mastered the art of chinagraph and coffee in the dark, it was great. Nowadays the average Area Radar unit looks like a call centre.
Commissioned Officers are becoming rare in towers, and in Area Radar.
A short course for aircrew is not the answer, more people who want to do air traffic is what's required. I suspect that part of the reason that so few people doing it want to recommend it, is that everywhere is short staffed. Also relevant is that as one of the very few blue suit jobs on camp, ATC are getting dicked for secondary duties more than they used to.
I loved my time in Area Radar, I dreaded it, based on what everyone in towers told me, but once I mastered the art of chinagraph and coffee in the dark, it was great. Nowadays the average Area Radar unit looks like a call centre.
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Crikey, oh blimey, I can see why PPrune has the reputation it does (on my squadron at least) for being the history corner! Hopefully the orignal poster got the answer they wanted?
If there was ever a need for some spare ATC skills to be dished out then someone should look at how our large aircraft with sky pointing radars can be used to help deconflict and point our smaller aircraft in the right direction. If we can do similar things for nasties etc. etc.
If there was ever a need for some spare ATC skills to be dished out then someone should look at how our large aircraft with sky pointing radars can be used to help deconflict and point our smaller aircraft in the right direction. If we can do similar things for nasties etc. etc.
