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Saudi Arabia vs Iran

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Saudi Arabia vs Iran

Old 23rd Jun 2017, 06:16
  #81 (permalink)  
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'Close al-Jazeera': Saudi Arabia issues Qatar with 13 demands to end blockade

Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries that have cut ties to Qatar have issued a steep list of demands to end the crisis, insisting that their Persian Gulf neighbour close al-Jazeera, cut back diplomatic ties to Iran and sever all ties with the Muslim Brotherhood. In a 13-point list — presented to the Qataris by Kuwait, which is helping mediate the crisis — the countries also demand an end to Turkey’s military presence in Qatar. The Associated Press obtained a copy of the list in Arabic from one of the countries involved in the dispute......

Those countries have now given Qatar 10 days to comply with all of the demands, which include paying an unspecified sum in compensation. Qatari officials in Doha did not immediately respond to a request for comment. But the list included conditions that the gas-rich nation had already insisted would never be met, including shutting down al-Jazeera. Qatar’s government has said it won’t negotiate until Arab nations lift their blockade. The demands were also likely to elicit Qatari objections that its neighbours are trying to dictate its sovereign affairs by imposing such far-reaching requirements.

Only a day earlier, secretary of state Rex Tillerson had warned the demands must be “reasonable and actionable.” The US issued that litmus test amid frustration at how long it was taking Saudi Arabia and others to formalise a list of demands, complicating U.S. efforts to bring about a resolution to the worst Gulf diplomatic crisis in years.

According to the list, Qatar must refuse to naturalize citizens from the four countries and expel those currently in Qatar, in what the countries describe as an effort to keep Qatar from meddling in their internal affairs. They are also demanding that Qatar hand over all individuals who are wanted by those four countries for terrorism; stop funding any extremist entities that are designated as terrorist groups by the US; and provide detailed information about opposition figures that Qatar has funded, ostensibly in Saudi Arabia and the other nations. Qatar vehemently denies funding or supporting extremism. But the country acknowledges that it allows members of some extremist groups such as Hamas to reside in Qatar, arguing that fostering dialogue with those groups is key to resolving global conflicts.

Qatar’s neighbors have also accused it of backing al-Qaida and the Islamic State group’s ideology throughout the Middle East. Those umbrella groups also appear on the list of entities whose ties with Qatar must be extinguished, along with Lebanon’s Hezbollah and the al-Qaida branch in Syria, once known as the Nusra Front. More broadly, the list demands that Qatar align itself politically, economically and otherwise with the Gulf Cooperation Council, a regional club that has focused on countering the influence of Iran. Saudi Arabia and other Sunni-led nations have accused Qatar of inappropriately close ties to Iran, a Shiite-led country and Saudi Arabia’s regional foe.

The Iran provisions in the document say Qatar must shut down diplomatic posts in Iran, kick out from Qatar any members of Iran’s elite Revolutionary Guard, and only conduct trade and commerce with Iran that complies with U.S. sanctions. Under the 2015 nuclear deal, nuclear-related sanctions on Iran were eased but other sanctions remain in place. Cutting ties to Iran would prove incredibly difficult. Qatar shares a massive offshore natural gas field with Iran which supplies the small nation that will host the 2022 Fifa World Cup its wealth.

Not only must Qatar shut down the Doha-based satellite broadcaster, the list says, but also all of its affiliates. That presumably would mean Qatar would have to close down al-Jazeera’s English-language sister network. Supported by Qatar’s government, al-Jazeera is one of the most widely watched Arabic channels, but it has long drawn the ire of Mideast governments for airing alternative viewpoints.
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Old 23rd Jun 2017, 19:41
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As an American, I am keen to see just what response our political sorts will have to this set of demands:
1. close al-Jazeera,
2. cut back diplomatic ties to Iran
3. sever all ties with the Muslim Brotherhood.
My opinion: (I wonder how Tillerson will respond ...)
(a) absolutely no to #1. Plenty of news organizations all over the world are a pain in a variety of backsides, but I see no reason to shut them down either. Consider the source. I have my own dislike of Al Jazeera, but I quite frankly find this demand to be unreasonable. (Not meeting Tillerson's criteria).
(b) I find that unreasonable. (I do understand why that demand is being made). Any sovereign nations gets to determine who it will or won't have embassies to and with.
(c) While I support that, how the heck do you enforce/measure compliance?
Not only must Qatar shut down the Doha-based satellite broadcaster, the list says, but also all of its affiliates. That presumably would mean Qatar would have to close down al-Jazeera’s English-language sister network. Supported by Qatar’s government, al-Jazeera is one of the most widely watched Arabic channels, but it has long drawn the ire of Mideast governments for airing alternative viewpoints.
Let's just say I see some "pot/kettle" stuff going on here. 0 for 3 in achieving Tillerson's criteria ... wonder if he'll read it the same way I do.
Analysis:
It seems (on the surface at least) that the Saudis are trying to drive Qatar into Iran's arms. While there is doubtless a variety of stuff going on under the table, this looks like a piece of Saudi over-reach.
We'll see.
OBTW: three words, for our dear Saudi friends: Al Freakin' Udeid. Do you really think we are going to just toss that into the trash can?
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Old 23rd Jun 2017, 23:40
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
As an American, I am keen to see just what response our political sorts will have to this set of demands:
1. close al-Jazeera,
2. cut back diplomatic ties to Iran
3. sever all ties with the Muslim Brotherhood.
My opinion: (I wonder how Tillerson will respond ...)
(a) absolutely no to #1. Plenty of news organizations all over the world are a pain in a variety of backsides, but I see no reason to shut them down either. Consider the source. I have my own dislike of Al Jazeera, but I quite frankly find this demand to be unreasonable. (Not meeting Tillerson's criteria).
(b) I find that unreasonable. (I do understand why that demand is being made). Any sovereign nations gets to determine who it will or won't have embassies to and with.
(c) While I support that, how the heck do you enforce/measure compliance? Let's just say I see some "pot/kettle" stuff going on here. 0 for 3 in achieving Tillerson's criteria ... wonder if he'll read it the same way I do.
Analysis:
It seems (on the surface at least) that the Saudis are trying to drive Qatar into Iran's arms. While there is doubtless a variety of stuff going on under the table, this looks like a piece of Saudi over-reach.
We'll see.
OBTW: three words, for our dear Saudi friends: Al Freakin' Udeid. Do you really think we are going to just toss that into the trash can?
Oh these demands were never going to be met, shove as much unreasonable stuff in as possible and this is just the Prelude before the attack.
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Old 25th Jun 2017, 01:46
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Hmm, I see that Qatar have refused to meet any of the demands

BBC Article

The Trump accuses Qatar of being a high level funder of terrorism (not presumably a brand new opinion), and the close alignment between Qatar and Iran is obvious, so why would the US agree to sell up to 75 F-15QAs (36 is the current order level)?

Flight Global Article (non paywall) on F-15QA Production

Then the state owned flag carrier Qatar Airlines makes an unsolicited bid for a stake in American Airlines?

Flight Global Article

These seem to indicate to me a very high level of entropy when combined with the demands of KSA and mates.

Already high levels of entropy seem to me to drive entropy higher non-linearly.
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Old 25th Jun 2017, 16:15
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And the Saudi King has apointed his son as heir .......... the one who got them into the Yemen...................
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Old 25th Jun 2017, 17:15
  #86 (permalink)  
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Qatar and Turkey refusing to back down - and in the Arab world face and respect is everything. 3rd July is going to be interesting...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-out-of-qatar

"Turkey’s president has described as disrespectful a demand by Saudi Arabia and its allies that it withdraw its troops from Qatar as a step towards ending a deepening dispute with the besieged Gulf state.

Two days after the demand was made, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan instead reiterated his support for Qatar and described the 13 demands levelled at the Gulf country as preconditions to restore relations as being “against international law”.

“To ask Turkey to pull out its troops from Qatar is firstly disrespectful behaviour towards us,” he said in Istanbul on the first day of a three-day holiday to mark the end of Ramadan. “We don’t need permission from anyone to establish military bases among partners. We endorse and appreciate Qatar’s stance towards the 13 demands. It’s a very, very ugly approach to try to interfere with our agreement.”

Sharply escalating the worst diplomatic crisis among Gulf allies in decades, the Saudi led-alliance on Friday gave Qatar 10 days to comply with a list of demands, which included closing the state-funded broadcasting network, al-Jazeera, scaling back contact with Iran, removing Turkish troops from its soil and severing ties with the Muslim Brotherhood.

Qatar has said it will not comply with the demands, and Erdoğan’s endorsement appeared to entrench Doha’s position – setting the scene for a showdown on 3 July.".....
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Old 25th Jun 2017, 23:16
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Threats , isolation , humiliation , face saving and ultimatums will only lead to one thing - conflict. The leadership in these parts think very different from most other countries in the world such as the Western liberal democracies , even China and Russia , and as such will undertake military action without much hesitation merely due to the lack of mutual assured destruction. It`s going to be a hot summer in the desert.
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 05:56
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6000PIC,


Indeed, but at the moment I yet believe that "Uncle Sam" (well, "Uncle Donald" and his men) will not allow all these medieval regimes to get unleashed and tear each other apart. And though they (regimes) are an obvious threat to the christian civilization (whatever it is), the best way to get them out is stop feeding them.
Where is controlled nuclear fusion that would put all their hydrocarbon stuff off the scene? These words are on air since 50's and still no tangible results.
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 19:56
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Meanwhile, as many of you may know, British Airways is trying to wet-lease Qatar Airways aircraft to alleviate the problems it faces from yet another Cabin Crew strike ...

BA apply to CAA to operate Qatari Airbus during strikes - FlyerTalk Forums

Nothing works in isolation these days, especially when Qatar owns a large slice of BA
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 19:49
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The supposition has always been that the Saudi Chinese built IRBMs up on the plateau have Pakistani nuke warheads on them (Saudi reputedly funded their entire programme on a quid pro quo basis). The satellite photos show all the launch site markings indicate they are aimed east rather than west.

Now it looks like they are being a little more open about it...

We will get Bomb too if Iran has one, Saudi crown prince Mohammed bin Salman warns

Saudi Arabia’s powerful and outspoken crown prince has threatened a new arms race in the Middle East, saying that if Iran developed a nuclear weapon he would seek one too.

Prince Mohammed bin Salman has already joined forces with President Trump, who has strongly backed his assertive rule in the kingdom, to argue for a stronger posture against Iran, Saudi Arabia’s long-time regional and sectarian rival. Now in an interview to be broadcast this weekend with CBS, the US television network, the prince replied aggressively to a question about the Iran nuclear programme. “Saudi Arabia does not want to acquire any nuclear bomb, but without a doubt if Iran developed a nuclear bomb, we will follow suit as soon as possible.”....

The interview was recorded before the prince’s visit to Britain last week, and therefore before Mr Tillerson was sacked. However, it serves as additional pressure on Iran to make compromises when faced with Mr Pompeo’s tough rhetoric. In it, the prince compares Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the Iranian supreme leader, to Hitler, on the basis that the West stood by and allowed both to extend their power and influence unchecked. “He wants to create his own project in the Middle East, very much like Hitler who wanted to expand at the time,” he says.

“Many countries around the world and in Europe did not realise how dangerous Hitler was until what happened, happened. I don't want to see the same events happening in the Middle East.” He himself has previously threatened that in future the struggle between Saudi Arabia and Iran “would be waged inside Iran”.....

Riyadh is currently negotiating American support for a civil nuclear power programme as a way of diversifying the kingdom away from reliance on oil for energy. Rick Perry, the US energy secretary, led a delegation to meet the prince in London last week to discuss Saudi Arabia's desire for nuclear power plants, which could be worth $80 billion to US companies providing the technology.

But previous such offers, including with Saudi Arabia’s close Gulf ally the United Arab Emirates, have included tight commitments that in return for being given nuclear technology the recipients will not seek to develop their own uranium enrichment or plutonium reprocessing programmes, of the sort needed for nuclear weapons.

Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, strongly argued against Saudi Arabia being allowed to develop these technologies, during a separate visit to Washington this month, according to reports.
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 22:46
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Let's just stand back and let these squabbling arab tribes settle their differences by themselves, as they have been doing for over 1000 years, and then sell the glowing desert glass as cheap jewellery when it is over.
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 18:13
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And how do we get to the oil located under this glowing desert glass pray??

Mr Putin would be ecstatic.......
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 18:58
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Just dig a hole. t will still be down there.
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 00:25
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And how do we get to the oil located under this glowing desert glass pray??
Break it into small pieces and sell it as cheap jewellery. And the oil is in a hole beneath that.

Do I have to think of EVERYTHING?? (Tips hat to Lloyd Bridges)
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 09:34
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Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
Just dig a hole. t will still be down there.
Ah.. our first volunteer to be on the drilling rig....
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 10:51
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A Nuclear Saudi?

ORAC mentioned -
Riyadh is currently negotiating American support for a civil nuclear power programme as a way of diversifying the kingdom away from reliance on oil for energy. Rick Perry, the US energy secretary, led a delegation to meet the prince in London last week to discuss Saudi Arabia's desire for nuclear power plants, which could be worth $80 billion to US companies providing the technology.
There is only one justification for Saudi Arabia wanting a Nuclear Industry and it has nothing to do with power generation. They want a nuclear weapons industry.

The price of solar cells has fallen, continues to fall and is certain to fall much further in the short term and far into the future. Today Solar power costs are already lower than Nuclear and are guaranteed to fall in the future as global production of cells increases.

Saudi, one of the sunniest places on earth is particularly well suited to the use of large scale solar power. There is no shortage of land either.

The risks of a Nuclear industry in the powder keg that is the middle East are enormous, ranging from simple accidents, military intervention causing the release of nuclear materials, the theft of nuclear materials and the production of nuclear weapons.

Solar cells are made from sand - the raw material is very cheap. All the cost is in the processing and we are getting better at that as production rises rapidly.

There is no reason to do anything other than to use every tool available to discourage the construction of a Nuclear reactor in Saudi.

How cheap are these?

"In the spring of 2016 a winning bid of 2.99 US cents per kilowatt-hour of photovoltaic solar energy was achieved for the next (800MW capacity) phase of the Sheikh Mohammed Bin Rashid solar farm in Dubai."[1]

"In October 2017, Saudi Arabia announced a further low contract price to provide solar power for $17.90 per MWh."[1][2] That is 1.79 US cents a kWh (or "unit" as we say in the UK).


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_o...city_by_source
[2] https://cleantechnica.com/2017/10/07...r-project-bid/
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 13:49
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Originally Posted by jimjim1 View Post
The price of solar cells has fallen, continues to fall and is certain to fall much further in the short term and far into the future. Today Solar power costs are already lower than Nuclear and are guaranteed to fall in the future as global production of cells increases.
A problem the Saudis area having with their solar farms, which are extensive, is dust. It reduces the figure of merit of their solar panels.
Saudi, one of the sunniest places on earth is particularly well suited to the use of large scale solar power. There is no shortage of land either.
They are already doing it, and are running in to a variety of snags. (They already figured out that their sunshine is an asset ...)
The risks of a Nuclear industry in the powder keg that is the middle East are enormous, ranging from simple accidents, military intervention causing the release of nuclear materials, the theft of nuclear materials and the production of nuclear weapons.
The NPT was put together a bit over 50 years ago due to the risks of the nuclear arms issue, so you are a bit late to the show. It has had mixed success.
Solar cells are made from sand - the raw material is very cheap. All the cost is in the processing and we are getting better at that as production rises rapidly.
One of the funniest little things I tripped over in post graduate studies was that, in the 80's, American companies were selling sand to Middle Eastern countries for their fiber optic cables/infrastructure. Not all sand is alike, down at the granular level.
There is no reason to do anything other than to use every tool available to discourage the construction of a Nuclear reactor in Saudi.
I disagree. Nuclear power is part of the better idea of power generation. My worry about the Saudis and nuclear power is "where do you get the water to cool it?" and of course security of the plant itself.
There are some very good bits of public information regarding Saudis and solar energy.
Some of Saudi Arabia’s most prominent industrial firms, as well as international electricity producers and solar companies big and small, have lined up to profit from what they see as a major new market. The fact that Saudi Arabia, an ardent booster of fossil fuels, has found compelling economic reasons to bet on solar is one of the clearest signs yet that solar, at least in some cases, has become a cost-effective source of power.

But the Saudis’ grand plan has been slow to materialize. The reasons include bureaucratic infighting; technical hurdles, notably dust storms and sandstorms that can quickly slash the amount of electricity a solar panel produces; and, most important, the petroleum subsidies that shield Saudi consumers from any real pressure to use less oil. The kingdom is a fossil-fuel supertanker, and though the captain knows that dangerous seas lie ahead, changing course is proving exceedingly hard.
It's not an either / or deal with nuclear power. Solar has a variety of shortcomings. It is smart to have both sources to keep the grid up.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 18th Mar 2018 at 14:46.
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 10:21
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LW50, far too sensible. Don't you know this isn't allowed on PPRuNe?

EAP
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 14:44
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@EAP86: sorry, lost the plot there for a moment. I'll straighten up and fly right.
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Old 22nd Jun 2018, 16:13
  #100 (permalink)  
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Daily Telegraph: Saudi Canal “to Turn Qatar into an Island”

Saudi Arabia intends to literally carve up the Arabian Peninsula to spite it’s tiny neighbour Qatar, inviting companies to construct a canal that would turn the emirate into an island, according to Saudi media reports.

The kingdom, which has led a blockade on Qatar for more than a year, has invited 5 companies to bid for the project, Makkah newspaper has reported, adding that a Saudi military base would be built in the kilometre-deep buffer zone between the future “Salwa Canal” and Qatar.

The project had first been floated in the kingdom’s media in April, when the Saudi-owned broadcaster said the 37 mile by 220 yard wide canal would include a tourist resort, a military base...... and a nuclear waste dump......
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