' Luck of a Lancaster'
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Papajuliet I can confirm your comments about Air Commodore Cozens. Back in 1980 I spent a morning with him. He mentioned that the film was totally unofficial and that the take off sequences were filmed from the door of an Oxford. He also mentioned that he converted Guy Gibson onto the Mosquito. If only I had recorded him...……...
nutloose:-
Thanks for the link, nutloose. I must admit that I had not heard of Ted Willoughby before and I should have, given that without him R5868 S Sugar (137 Ops) would not be preserved at RAFM Hendon and its place would have been taken instead by PA474 (0 Ops!). The BBMF would thus have no airworthy Lancaster to fly. A very British story, and a reminder that we wouldn't have a National Bomber Command Memorial either, if it wasn't for the efforts of a Pop Singer!
Couldn't agree more with Willoughby Jnr's:-
No mealy mouthed prevarication there!
Another tale that should be told, because without it the RAF would not be flying PA474 and S for Sugar would not be in the RAF Museum, this was the result of one mans determination and his own money in restoring her.https://www.lancasterraf.co.uk/the-story/
Couldn't agree more with Willoughby Jnr's:-
the fact remains without the Lancaster the war would not have been won.
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rolling20, I rang a close friend, Graham Simons, to find your answer for Memphis Belle. Fifteen hours of footage were taken when making the film. The take off sequence was taken from the ball turret. The guns were removed and it was probably Whyler himself who took the footage, using a 16mm hand held camera. There are two sequences and as the take off was with the turret down, they would have been illegal! One sequence was taken at Bassingbourne and the other, a beat up, at Alconbury / Abbots Ripton. The shots from outside were taken from another B17's
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He also mentioned that he converted Guy Gibson onto the Mosquito.
rolling20, I rang a close friend, Graham Simons, to find your answer for Memphis Belle. Fifteen hours of footage were taken when making the film. The take off sequence was taken from the ball turret. The guns were removed and it was probably Whyler himself who took the footage, using a 16mm hand held camera. There are two sequences and as the take off was with the turret down, they would have been illegal! One sequence was taken at Bassingbourne and the other, a beat up, at Alconbury / Abbots Ripton. The shots from outside were taken from another B17's
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That was always my understanding Wensleydale. I have a copy of Gibson's log book No2 and there is only one Mosquito entry - July 10th 1944 with pilot: Sqdn Ldr Martin ( Mickey Martin?) Local
Cozens did say they swung off the runway and got airborne from the grass.
Cozens did say they swung off the runway and got airborne from the grass.
At that time one would imagine Gibson to have been a poor pupil. It was only 2 years previously that he had converted onto Lancaster's after a demonstration in the air by Hoppy Hopgood. Albeit he had come from flying Manchesters. Ronald Churcher who I believe was a young pilot on 106 with Gibson, converted onto mossies after a couple of hours apparently.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Now I wonder if there is any link with Mark Hopgood Vulcan captain?
Strange how relatively rare surnames occur with sonar full of father's foot steps o r coincidence?
Paul Millikin Vulcans - Andy BBMF
Chattertons too
Harvey Hliliyard I saw mention of and lastly Canberras and Graham Shackleton
Dick Emerson and Grubsey
Hannahs of course
Just wish in retrospect we had been able to talk to our bemedalled seniors. Just what did you do in the war Boss? But it just was not done - shop, hangar doors, shooting a line - all infradig
Strange how relatively rare surnames occur with sonar full of father's foot steps o r coincidence?
Paul Millikin Vulcans - Andy BBMF
Chattertons too
Harvey Hliliyard I saw mention of and lastly Canberras and Graham Shackleton
Dick Emerson and Grubsey
Hannahs of course
Just wish in retrospect we had been able to talk to our bemedalled seniors. Just what did you do in the war Boss? But it just was not done - shop, hangar doors, shooting a line - all infradig
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463 Sqn RAAF at Waddington was the home of the 5 Group Film Unit for the last year of the War. These films came into my sight earlier tonight and thought that some of you would find them interesting.... The first film has the only photographic evidence I have seen that PO-S "Sugar R5868 (now in the Hendon Museum) was fitted with H2S during the War. All other shots that I have of her do not show her so fitted.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ect/1060021108
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ect/1060021130
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ect/1060021108
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ect/1060021130
Now I wonder if there is any link with Mark Hopgood Vulcan captain?
Strange how relatively rare surnames occur with sonar full of father's foot steps o r coincidence?
Paul Millikin Vulcans - Andy BBMF
Chattertons too
Harvey Hliliyard I saw mention of and lastly Canberras and Graham Shackleton
Dick Emerson and Grubsey
Hannahs of course
Just wish in retrospect we had been able to talk to our bemedalled seniors. Just what did you do in the war Boss? But it just was not done - shop, hangar doors, shooting a line - all infradig
Strange how relatively rare surnames occur with sonar full of father's foot steps o r coincidence?
Paul Millikin Vulcans - Andy BBMF
Chattertons too
Harvey Hliliyard I saw mention of and lastly Canberras and Graham Shackleton
Dick Emerson and Grubsey
Hannahs of course
Just wish in retrospect we had been able to talk to our bemedalled seniors. Just what did you do in the war Boss? But it just was not done - shop, hangar doors, shooting a line - all infradig
PN;-
Occasionally though you were privileged enough to be treated to amusing anecdotes. Typically self deprecating ones of course, as that was the default norm for that generation. Chalky White (who else?), a Flt Lt instructor at 242 OCU RAF Thorney Island, spoke of being an OTU student Wellington Pilot. Having gone solo his crew was mustered for Harris's first '1000 bomber' raid, on Cologne. They found the city, bombed it, but lost an engine in doing so.
Somehow he managed to fly it back home and later enjoyed his OM bacon and egg breakfast in splendid isolation, as his fellow students on the raid had beaten him back there. There was however a group of instructors on another table (of course!) chatting. Eventually one of them who recognised him came across the room for a word. "Glad to see you made it back, young White, how did you get on?". "Oh we found the target well enough, Sir, but I lost an engine". "Oh, bad luck, but well done for making it back. Now you know why it's called the pig, for that is what it is with one feathered!". Chalky responded politely but vaguely, and later sought out his own instructor. "What does feathered mean, Sir?".
it just was not done - shop, hangar doors, shooting a line - all infradig
Occasionally though you were privileged enough to be treated to amusing anecdotes. Typically self deprecating ones of course, as that was the default norm for that generation. Chalky White (who else?), a Flt Lt instructor at 242 OCU RAF Thorney Island, spoke of being an OTU student Wellington Pilot. Having gone solo his crew was mustered for Harris's first '1000 bomber' raid, on Cologne. They found the city, bombed it, but lost an engine in doing so.
Somehow he managed to fly it back home and later enjoyed his OM bacon and egg breakfast in splendid isolation, as his fellow students on the raid had beaten him back there. There was however a group of instructors on another table (of course!) chatting. Eventually one of them who recognised him came across the room for a word. "Glad to see you made it back, young White, how did you get on?". "Oh we found the target well enough, Sir, but I lost an engine". "Oh, bad luck, but well done for making it back. Now you know why it's called the pig, for that is what it is with one feathered!". Chalky responded politely but vaguely, and later sought out his own instructor. "What does feathered mean, Sir?".
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
OK, as we seem to be deviating: my boss, sqn ldr ops recounted a tale of when he commanded Spitfire sqn in Transport Command. Anyway he found an order in the Flying Order Book stating that on any day when no other mission was tasked they were to fly a strike down the Loire Valley.
This they did.
This was after the war and might even have been early 50s and the French objected. From that he learnt about checking the FOB against the Master copy.
This they did.
This was after the war and might even have been early 50s and the French objected. From that he learnt about checking the FOB against the Master copy.
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PN;-
Occasionally though you were privileged enough to be treated to amusing anecdotes. Typically self deprecating ones of course, as that was the default norm for that generation. Chalky White (who else?), a Flt Lt instructor at 242 OCU RAF Thorney Island, spoke of being an OTU student Wellington Pilot. Having gone solo his crew was mustered for Harris's first '1000 bomber' raid, on Cologne. They found the city, bombed it, but lost an engine in doing so.
Somehow he managed to fly it back home and later enjoyed his OM bacon and egg breakfast in splendid isolation, as his fellow students on the raid had beaten him back there. There was however a group of instructors on another table (of course!) chatting. Eventually one of them who recognised him came across the room for a word. "Glad to see you made it back, young White, how did you get on?". "Oh we found the target well enough, Sir, but I lost an engine". "Oh, bad luck, but well done for making it back. Now you know why it's called the pig, for that is what it is with one feathered!". Chalky responded politely but vaguely, and later sought out his own instructor. "What does feathered mean, Sir?".
Occasionally though you were privileged enough to be treated to amusing anecdotes. Typically self deprecating ones of course, as that was the default norm for that generation. Chalky White (who else?), a Flt Lt instructor at 242 OCU RAF Thorney Island, spoke of being an OTU student Wellington Pilot. Having gone solo his crew was mustered for Harris's first '1000 bomber' raid, on Cologne. They found the city, bombed it, but lost an engine in doing so.
Somehow he managed to fly it back home and later enjoyed his OM bacon and egg breakfast in splendid isolation, as his fellow students on the raid had beaten him back there. There was however a group of instructors on another table (of course!) chatting. Eventually one of them who recognised him came across the room for a word. "Glad to see you made it back, young White, how did you get on?". "Oh we found the target well enough, Sir, but I lost an engine". "Oh, bad luck, but well done for making it back. Now you know why it's called the pig, for that is what it is with one feathered!". Chalky responded politely but vaguely, and later sought out his own instructor. "What does feathered mean, Sir?".
Thank you for confirming Chalky's story, LS. You might also recall another one that he told about training glider pilots. An important part of their training was to practice the launching of concentrated formations, and such an exercise was in progress (at RAF Fairford?). Way towards the rear of the dense mass of gliders waiting in turn to be connected to a tow rope and a tug was a GPR pilot who suddenly felt the call of nature. Seeing just how many aircraft there were ahead of him before it would be his turn, he reasoned he would have enough time to exit his glider, nip across to the boundary hedge, answer the call, and then nip back again. Sadly his reasoning was greatly in error as, while adjusting his clothing, he was horrified to see that events had moved apace and his now empty glider was being hooked up to a Stirling tug, the slack taken up, and the take-off initiated. His warning cries were drowned out by a cacophony of radial engines.
Things went well at first as the glider gained flying speed, but then it began ever increasing and wilder gyrations until, in an understandable act of self preservation, the tug cast it loose and to its doom. No doubt the legal eagles could have had a field day, and one can imagine the many offences under Military Law that could have been invoked, but I prefer to think that a more benevolent attitude would have prevailed. Gliders were ten-a-penny and their pilots badly needed. If nothing else, he had shown himself to be an officer and a gentleman in his actions, as any other course of action would have been unthinkable, wouldn't it?
Things went well at first as the glider gained flying speed, but then it began ever increasing and wilder gyrations until, in an understandable act of self preservation, the tug cast it loose and to its doom. No doubt the legal eagles could have had a field day, and one can imagine the many offences under Military Law that could have been invoked, but I prefer to think that a more benevolent attitude would have prevailed. Gliders were ten-a-penny and their pilots badly needed. If nothing else, he had shown himself to be an officer and a gentleman in his actions, as any other course of action would have been unthinkable, wouldn't it?
